Secret Aussie Business, blown apart in Bali

Whistle
1

A large group of very muscular and very thirsty Aussies will be descending on Ireland very soon and tomorrow they mean business. Serious business. International diplomacy will be on display for the expected sell-out crowd as Australia and Ireland sort things out in our time-honoured way—with a good donnybrook followed by an ale and a laugh. I’m not speaking secret Aussie travellers language now; the Irish folks who understand the password will know exactly what I’m talking about. The password is Tadhg Kennelly—well actually that’s two words I suppose. No, it’s not enough just to be able to pronounce it; you’ve got to know exactly what it means.

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-10-12 06:35 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-10-12 06:36 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-10-12 06:38 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-10-14 10:36 ]

2

Mate, what about the sepos?

3

We Won, We Won, We Won, We Won, We Won, We Won.

Now that’s off my chest.

We’ll win again! (I hope)

Simon

4

On 2002-10-13 23:32, Taptone wrote:
We Won, We Won, We Won, We Won, We Won, We Won.

Now that’s off my chest.

We’ll win again! (I hope)

Simon

Indeed we did. And I wasn’t wrong about the donnybrook—three, officially I think.

I suppose it’s been in the headlines all around the world but it’s a bit hard for Australians to feel very happy about anything right at the moment. The bomb blasts in Bali will have claimed a very large number of Australian lives and injured and traumatised many others. Many of us still aren’t sure whether friends and relatives are safe. This is already the worst terrorist attack—it seems nearly certain to be such—since September 11, and more casualties are certain to come to light. I’m sure we’ll manage to put on a brave face for our annual get-together with our Irish friends but it won’t be easy.

John

5

John, our hearts go out to you and your countrymen.

You’ll be in my thoughts and prayers.

Jim


\

B flat or begone!

[ This Message was edited by: jim_mc on 2002-10-14 03:33 ]

6

On 2002-10-14 03:32, jim_mc wrote:
John, our hearts go out to you and your countrymen.

You’ll be in my thoughts and prayers.

Jim

Thanks very much, Jim. Greatly appreciated. I fear it will be a bumpy road ahead for all of us, wherever we live in the world, for some time to come.

7

It’s appalling Wombat, terrorism really is the scourge of the modern world. As soon as I heard I thought “oh no, that place’ll be full of Aussies just having fun”. Cruel.

All well wishes to you and your mates in these troubled times.

8

A tragedy for you and your fellow Aussies for sure, Wombat. Once again, cowards show their stripes.

~Larry

9

Just saw on lunchtime BBC news that 67 Aussies and 33 Poms took the hit on this one, and probably the Balinese the most of all. Bloody cowards.

10

On 2002-10-14 09:41, nickt wrote:
Just saw on lunchtime BBC news that 67 Aussies and 33 Poms took the hit on this one, and probably the Balinese the most of all. Bloody cowards.

Those figures are probably very conservative. it’s hard to get accurate figures. Only 14 people are confirmed dead but most of the bodies were atomised or pretty much unrecognisable. About 220 are said to be ‘missing’; people from 19 different nations. One estimate has about 100 Balinese dead. This is a terrible tragedy for these peaceful and friendly people and one that threatens their whole economy. (This fact might not have been an accidental side effect; Indonesian politics makes that of the Balkans look straightforward and we should not forget that the Balinese are overwhelmingly Hindu and Animist in religion.) It is also a very great tragedy for those Indonesians looking for peace, prosperity and stability—probably a large majority.

At the moment it looks likely that as many as 200 Australians died, numerically the largest number. (Yes I know my figures don’t add up; they come from different sources.) Most are still ‘missing’ but it is harder to stay genuinely missing in Bali than it is in New York so we must fear the worst. Many of us saw this coming but, like the loss of a parent, that doesn’t make it any easier to deal with when it happens. How odd the title of this thread looks now. (The old title, that is; I’ve just changed it to reflect the current discussion.)

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-10-14 10:37 ]

11

My heart goes out to all who are suffering from this terrible act of evil. Terrorists are the slime of the universe :frowning:

Redwolf

12

You have to wonder if they really think that blowing up dance halls and buses helps whatever their cause is in some way. If you think about it, all the terrorists have done lately is cause everyone to want to destroy them. Does anyone even know what half of these terrorist groups want? Do THEY even know at this point? Is it just to get some attention or notoriety? Sounds stupid to me. Kill a lot of innocent people so that their government’s notice you and will then make sure you never get what you want because they are all caught up in rightous fury over the waste of innocent lives. I’ll never understand these people, I don’t think I want to. Just my tirade for the day on this one.
My prayers go out to the families of all those innocent people.
-Jim

13

I’ve spent a lot of time in such places,
and can see the scene
in my mind’s eye. Unspeakable. And I
have had many Australian
friends traveling about. My heart goes
out to all of you in Australia and
everywhere else.

14

On 2002-10-14 12:13, Jim_B1 wrote:
You have to wonder if they really think that blowing up dance halls and buses helps whatever their cause is in some way. If you think about it, all the terrorists have done lately is cause everyone to want to destroy them. Does anyone even know what half of these terrorist groups want? Do THEY even know at this point? Is it just to get some attention or notoriety? Sounds stupid to me. Kill a lot of innocent people so that their government’s notice you and will then make sure you never get what you want because they are all caught up in rightous fury over the waste of innocent lives. I’ll never understand these people, I don’t think I want to. Just my tirade for the day on this one.
My prayers go out to the families of all those innocent people.
-Jim

Hey, it worked for Arafat! Thirty years ago he was throwing bombs and taking a very direct hand in various terrorist acts - now he meets with heads of state and half the world laments how poorly he’s been treated by the Israeli government lately.

Sadly, people’s memories are all too short.

Most of these groups are the most extreme of the most extreme. They quite literally want to see the utter and complete destruction of anyone whose way of life is different from their own. We hear them say that and we with our western minds think, “yeah, that’s the rhetoric, but what do they really want.” Unfortunately, that really is what they want.

To most of them, their own death is pretty meaningless because they’ve been taught from infancy that to die while fighting the infidel is a direct ticket to paradise (all the other roads to paradise are a lot more complicated, BTW). The Quran and the accompanying book of laws (much larger and I can’t recall the name right now) are really neat that way. You have to visit Mecca at least once in your life to go to paradise, unless you are killed first while fighting the infidel. You can’t go to paradise if you do this, unless it’s done while fighting the infidel, and so on.

Something most of us Westerners have difficulty understanding is how seriously devoted to their religious beliefs they are. Almost everyone who is educated in a muslim school will have memorized the entire Quran by the age of about 13. How many Christians, even devout, practicing, Bible toting ones, do you know who have memorized even one book of the Bible?

John


[ This Message was edited by: OutOfBreath on 2002-10-14 14:15 ]

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On 2002-10-14 14:15, OutOfBreath wrote:
Hey, it worked for Arafat! Thirty years ago he was throwing bombs and taking a very direct hand in various terrorist acts - now he meets with heads of state and half the world laments how poorly he’s been treated by the Israeli government lately.

Did it really work? Is there a Palestinian state? Is there a end to the fighting? Are the people in the area more secure? Not that I can see. Someone else is in a position of authority, true but have any of the stated goals that they used to justify throwing around the bombs been accomplished? No. On the upside, I at least understand fighting to be recognized as a country and a people, even if it’s more complicated than that. Most of these groups aren’t doing that.

Sadly, people’s memories are all too short.

Yes it is sad :frowning:

Most of these groups are the most extreme of the most extreme. They quite literally want to see the utter and complete destruction of anyone whose way of life is different from their own. We hear them say that and we with our western minds think, “yeah, that’s the rhetoric, but what do they really want.” Unfortunately, that really is what they want.

To most of them, their own death is pretty meaningless because they’ve been taught from infancy that to die while fighting the infidel is a direct ticket to paradise (all the other roads to paradise are a lot more complicated, BTW). The Quran and the accompanying book of laws (much larger and I can’t recall the name right now) are really neat that way. You have to visit Mecca at least once in your life to go to paradise, unless you are killed first while fighting the infidel. You can’t go to paradise if you do this, unless it’s done while fighting the infidel, and so on.

Something most of us Westerners have difficulty understanding is how seriously devoted to their religious beliefs they are. Almost everyone who is educated in a muslim school will have memorized the entire Quran by the age of about 13. How many Christians, even devout, practicing, Bible toting ones, do you know who have memorized even one book of the Bible?

John


[ This Message was edited by: OutOfBreath on 2002-10-14 14:15 ]

It’s funny (not funny ha ha funny, but funny strange funny) these groups all seem to claim that they represent the people but I really think that the people that they represent would probably be pretty happy if they could go to work and school and have a few good meals everyday without the fear of people shooting and blowing up things every day. I guess it makes them feel rightous to say that everyone is behind their cause.

I know a few muslims and haven’t found the religion to be a bad thing. The Quran is almost exactly the old testament with some different flavorings to it but the basic stories and writings are the same.

I think in general people are very similar everywhere, if they can get food on the table, a reasonable amount of work, a few coins in their pocket, and a few holidays a year, they are basically pretty happy. So why can’t these people concentrate on doing that for the people they say they represent? Easier to kill unarmed civilians I guess instead of actually dealing with the day to day problems.

Ghengis Kahn’s empire fell apart because his son couldn’t handle the administration. Guess it’s easier to have war than peace.

Oh well, this is my last post on this topic, it’s too depressing and far to off topic on a board that’s about something that’s supposed to be my relaxation. :slight_smile:
-Jim

16

…The Quran is almost exactly the old testament with some different flavorings to it but the basic stories and writings are the same.

As a person who has read both books, I can report that they are very different.

In the Koran, Jews are damned by Allah. In the Old Testiment, God is the “God of Israel.” This is mentioned 199 times in the Jewish book.

The Christian Bible, consisting of the Jewish book (OT) and the New Testiment (New Covenant), was written by 40 men, over a period of 1600 years, on three different continents.

Gary

17

On 2002-10-14 12:13, Jim_B1 wrote:
You have to wonder if they really think that blowing up dance halls and buses helps whatever their cause is in some way.

It does help their cause, because their cause is killing innocent people. Even beyond their religion, it simply makes them feel important. “Look what a big splash I made…I must really BE somebody.”

18

-Just a plea for tolerance re. Islamic people whose characters and motives are getting slammed & slurred in the post 9/11 era-I’ve lived, learned and worked at various times with
Islamic people from America,Bangladesh, Turkey,
Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and have lived with Christians and Jews as well and experienced humanity and compassion from all, bar none.
-No, I don’t care to run into a terrorist, but I
haven’t met any yet. There is no excuse for this awful act in Bali, but lets not judge
all Muslims by these acts. The bible itself
says “Judge not, lest ye be etc…”.

Brian O.

[ This Message was edited by: brianormond on 2002-10-14 17:14 ]

19

I wrote this to Jim in a private message,
but as the issue is now on the
board I’ll post it here.

What do they want?
Al Qaida (anyway) has said repeatedly
that it wants two things:
Western troops out of Saudi Arabia
(where Mecca is), and ‘an end to
America’s bias in favor of Israel
in its conflict with the Palestinian
people.’ This may not be the
whole story, but probably it
has much to do with it. Also
Al Qaida is likely striking back
at the leaders of the war
on terror–Australia has
troops deployed in Afghanistan.

Where does the rage come from?
In one of OBL’s recruiting films
there is news footage of a civilian
Palestinian father crouching behind
a barrier, holding his six year
old son in his arms. One sees
the bullets striking the child,
killing him. This is shown
repeatedly. Our guns, our bullets.
Events that are
on the periphery of our consciousness
are viewed by many in this world
with the rage with which we
saw 9-11.

Can it work? Terrorist tactics,
however wicked, have sometimes
proven effective
at accomplishing political
goals. The list is incendiary,
because it includes our friends.
The people behind this
terrorism aren’t fools
nor are they crazy nor
are they killing innocent
people for the exercise.
Often they
want repression because it
gets them troops and allies.
Much depends on whether
they can keep on operating
and on whether we connect
the dots.

I apologize in advance if this
offends anybody.
I’m not advocating
that we do this or that, or excusing
or forgiving. Emphatically I am
not saying that this is coming
from the Palestinians themselves.

I do think is that it is
becoming our patriotic duty
to keep thinking
as clearly as we can, when
we are angry, when we
are in sorrow. Emotions are
one thing, a cold analysis
of what’s going on another.
Mixing the two is a luxury
we can ill afford, I believe.
At the end of the day,
what we’re dealing with is
primarily political
terrorism and the sooner we
count the fact, the safer
we will be. The association
of political terror with
the political interests of
religious groups is old.

20

On 2002-10-14 16:47, Gary wrote:

…The Quran is almost exactly the old testament with some different flavorings to it but the basic stories and writings are the same.

As a person who has read both books, I can report that they are very different.

In the Koran, Jews are damned by Allah. In the Old Testiment, God is the “God of Israel.” This is mentioned 199 times in the Jewish book.

The Christian Bible, consisting of the Jewish book (OT) and the New Testiment (New Covenant), was written by 40 men, over a period of 1600 years, on three different continents.

Gary

I really havent read the new testiment at all since I was a boy so I can’t comment on it at all.

As someone who has read large chunks of both the Quran and the Old Testiment (never read either cover to cover) I find the similarities to far exceed the differences. I was speaking in generalities not the twists of each that say their version is better which is what those passages basically are and were written by the ones that fostered their own religions on both sides in my opinion.
Just another little historical note that I find interesting, a trivial pursuit answer if you will, up until 50 or 60 years ago ( I can’t remember when the UN sponsered the founding of Israel, sorry not a historian) Israel as a country didn’t exist and never did. It was not a place but a belief in the God that made someone an Israelite.
I don’t make any claim of being an expert on any of this, just making observations. Opinions on politics and religion will always vary and we could go back and forth on this for years, and many have. I can say that I admire the fact that anyone can find any faith in the world that they can give themselves to. Unfortunately faith has been used by people for centuries to advance their own agendas.
I am just very wary of saying this is all religious. I think the religion card is being used by many people who are using it for their own reasons again. Just as it has been played since the first person came up with the idea of religion.
As you can tell, I’m not a very religious person, I think about becoming one sometimes but then I see things like this and think that all organized religions are wrong.

All just my opinions and this is really my last post on this subject. I hate thinking about everything that I have no control over and can’t do anything about.
-Jim


[ This Message was edited by: Jim_B1 on 2002-10-14 21:07 ]