A thought for Madrid...

Poststructural Pub
1

In the aftermath of the dreadful events in Madrid last week, I guess it’s understandable that there’s been no mention here on the board of that tragedy. Perhaps, as in the hours and days following 9-11, we’re just too stunned to talk about it. Maybe there’s a big part of us all that recognises “there but for the grace of God…”, the realisation that for any of us, the daily commute might come to an abrupt end, and so we take a kind of refuge in ‘normality’, preferring not to voice those fears.

Or perhaps we simply just don’t know what to say; it’s hard enough to come up with “words” when someone you know loses a loved one. At such times, people often prefer to say nothing, believing that by ‘staying away’ they’re giving the bereaved time alone to come to terms with the loss.

Speaking from personal experience though, “words” aren’t the important thing, and ‘time alone’ simply makes the loss all the more painful. It’s knowing that friends are ‘there for you’, and are thinking of you, even if they don’t know quite what to say that might make the pain and loss easier to bear, that helps the most.

Here in the UK, we held a 3-minute silence at 11:00 a.m to honour the memory of those who died in Madrid on 3-11, and those affected by the tragedy. Sometimes, though, silence isn’t enough.

I just wanted to let our friends in Spain know that although there may be no “words”, we are thinking of them…

2

Thanks Gary. That’s how it usually is.

3

In addition to the fact that so many people were killed or wounded which is horrible enough as it is, I’m not happy about the fact that an act of terrorism obviously decided the Spanish election.

I am happy that Aznar’s conservatives lost the election, I just don’t like the direct reason for it.

/Jens

4

Toppling a poll in this way casts a dark shadow, with both England and the US preparing for the polls one can only fear may happen before upcoming elections from now on.

Fair play to you Gary, I was surprised [maybe quietly dismayed] there was no mention at all here while some lesser events were reported here within minutes in the past.

5

The direct reason IS NOT the bombing in Madrid. Terrorist bombings NEVER orient an election towards a more liberal choice. This whether in Russia, Italy or Belgium–to quote European nations which have all in the past 30 years endured “terrorist” provocations schemed precisely for a right-wing swing. See the Reichstag burning, to take an extreme if older demonstration.

Now, what is true is the bombing was a crisis, and governments are often judged by their response to a crisis. However, here, the attempts to capitalize on the victims wasn’t the liberals choce, but the tories’ (reminds me some questionable TV propaganda in the US…)

Of the deeper reasons man could quote for the Spanish votes,

A. First may be the Aznar’s administration early rush to accuse the Basque ETA, against evidence piling up to point at Al Qaeda.

B. Another reason is the arrogance of a government which ventured alongside Bush policy, but against the overwhelming majority of Spaniards’ opinion (over 80% in the polls).

C. Another reason is a country and people who feel deeply European, against a Nationalist government led by an Aznar who isolated Spain from Europe on three counts:

  1. initiating and leading the “rebellion” (Spain, Poland, Tcheco, Hungary…) against the rest of Europe on the Iraq issue
  2. torpedoing the vote on the European Constitution–i.e. acting to keep Europe the political dwarf it is–with again the help of the aforementined Poland, etc.
    Note both moves above were suspected, including in Spanish press, to be remote-controlled from Washington. Doesn’t take old Nick Machiavelli to gather that, does it?
  3. Recent vociferation against the “private” Blair-Chirac-Schroeder summit on military cooperation.

D (minor) I personnally venture that the lack of commiseration by the White House, I mean here its polite concision, showed a sharp contrast for the Spaniards, compared to their own sympathy when US was hurt in its own main city. Then, compared to the marked solidarity all over Europe. That may also have contributed to chose alliances.

To feed the elements above, I’ll just remind the three first decisions announced this morning by the new Zapatero (Viva Zapata! :slight_smile: ) government, in the order they were announced. I think this official list speaks enough for the direct motivationS of Spaniards:

  1. Develop an effective anti-terrorism policy
  2. Withdraw ASAP the 1,300 Spanish troops currently in Iraq
  3. Restart and speed up the process of signing the European Constitution.
6

I’m afraid this perceptive analysis may be lost
on the terrorists, Zoobie, who probably planned
the bombings at least partly
so as to affect the elections,
and are likely to think they succeeded.

To the Spanish people…

7

jim, but by thinking that way, you’re saying the Spaniards
should have voted right no matter what happened just to
show the terrorists they “weren’t successful”.

8

Agreed, this might be a reason.

B. Another reason is the arrogance of a government which ventured alongside Bush policy, but against the overwhelming majority of Spaniards’ opinion (over 80% in the polls).

But didn’t Spanish polls from just before Thursday indicate that the conservatives were overwhelming favorites for reelection? If so, that would indicate that Aznar’s aligning himself with Bush (against the wish of the people) wasn’t about to cost him the election - until the events of Thursday that is.

Sorry Zub, to me it certainly seems that the bombings in Madrid changed the outcome of the election (for whatever reason). I don’t think the fact that the change was towards a more liberal (in the American sense of the word) government is an issue here though.

9

No, I’m just saying what I said. Best

10

Nonsense!
You’re the philosopher, please be consistent on causes and effects, otherwise you’ll pass as a sophist, and only.

WHEN the winter 1979-80 Teheran hostages “made” Ronald Reagan

WHEN 11/9 brought the most reactionary US administration since Theodore Roosevelt

WHEN alledged Tchetchen bombings 4 years ago brought Russia back to its totalitarian nightmare, last Autumn got the Parliament swarmed by the right wing, and just got Putin crowned for good (and I predict–take date and feel free to quote me later!–way longer than a second and last 4-year term…)

WHEN terrorism brought Israel to its most reactionary leadership ever

ETC.

THEN how can you seriously argue the bombing was planned to get a liberal vote in Spain?
Out of what tallhat would an insurgency theoretician have fished such a paradoxical reasoning, nulled by all historical experience, whether remote or recent?

Terrorists and extremists generally have always gained influence precisely by radicalization. An Aznar-led Spain is much more useful to extremist islamists because it helps and point at an Enemy. Just the same, terrorism has helped out Uncle Sam, and Putin, a lot…

All we may infere from what happened is, yes, the Madrid terrorists wanted to hurt Spain as an US ally. The sudden drop of the $US on the world market this morning shows many in-power think the next target may well be US again. I don’t see any elections close, there.

What I suspect is if there’s such thing as a centralised or coordinated Al Qaeda (which has yet to be proven), then its goal in our internal policies is to radicalize an opposition between the West and Islamic word, and to isolate themselves.

But again, I insist on “infering” here on such gesswork. Your “probably” in the sentence I quoted is far from deductive…

Best

11

Well, I think the terrorists may have thought this way.
If we do a horrific terrorist attack close to the
election, given that large numbers of Spaniards
are opposed to Spanish involvement in Iraq,
they may feel that this bad policy is resulting
in catastrophe at home and so vote out the
government that supports the war.
This may have been foolish thinking,
for the reasons you give, but why shouldn’t
they think foolishly? Nothing that has happened
since would make them change their minds,
so it’s likely that they think they succeeded,
even if they are mistaken.


Zoobie, look at it this way. The attacks were
surely timed to influence the election.
Why? Because they thought they could,
and it’s unlikely that they did it to
keep the former administration
in office. Best

12

I think the facts speak for themselves:

Before Thursday: Polls show a clear-cut conservative victory.
After Thursday: The socialists surprisingly win the election.

Now, did or didn’t the attacks on Thursday influence, or even decide the result of the election? I think the answer to that is trivial.

Now, whether getting a socialist victory was actually the reason for the terrorists to do the attack in the first place (I’m not sure it was), is a completely different question. But if it was, I can’t see how they can consider the results anything but a success.

/Jens

13

I’m sorry.

Please forgive me.

I’m seriously pissed.

Would everyone please shut up and stop trying to show the world how smart you are for a few minutes?

Someone’s mother, sister, father, child, spouse, has died suddenly and for no good reason. They are our own mothers, sisters, fathers, children, spouses, if we could only recognize them.

Thank you.

14

Understanding your motives and apologizing for contributing to piss you.

Everyone has in own way of mourning, and bringing the trauma out.
At 10:00 here, everything froze in silence–yes this includes me–in memory of the Madrid victims.
Back home, I was puzzled as Peter Laban about the strange absence of reaction on this here board, usually so prompt to react on other events.
With this frame of thoughts, and believe me we’ve been many here thinking of the massacre for the past three days, not just from this morning.
Silence doesn’t show on a screen. And all silences don’t say the same.

And some feel if we don’t reflect on the reasons and how to avoid it later, then it will have been not only for no reason, but also in vain.

15

It’s OK.

Don’t take it personally. You don’t have to defend what you’re saying. I just had to blow off some steam.

Best wishes,
Jerry

16

I find it harder and harder to have even the tiniest shred of faith in humanity with each day that passes.

17

Thanks. The chance of something similar happening here in the US, to affect the outcome of the presidential election, is something I hadn’t considered yet. Elements in the ME probably think they’d benefit from Kerry, but I seriously wonder if Kerry, as president, would suddenly change US military policy. There’s traditionally a lot of rambling and political propaganda just before an election, then “suddenly” after winning, elected officals see issues in a different light because of some new angle.

18

Don’t lose all Hope, though. For every act of evil, there are inumerable acts of good and kindness, which we don’t see or hear on the news.

19

These are relatively good times, Sam,
though not in Spain. Last century, sheesh!

20

I’m not surprised that nothing was mentioned about this on the board before now. It’s not the first time that I’ve noticed, sadly, that if it doesn’t happen in the U.S. or to the U.S., most Americans think, “Oh, too bad. If I hurry I can get to the mall before it closes.”