OT: Getting Something Off My Chest

Whistle
1

I know this isn’t the appropriate place to vent this and I know it’s going to cause a stink, but I just need to vent.

In the last newsletter, I wrote:
Listen, about President Bush…Did you catch that press conference last night? I’m going to use that as my model for all future Chiff & Fipple press conferences. I’m going to wear a good suit, either take, or look like I’ve taken, sedative medications, and refuse to let any reporter raise their hands. Instead, I’m going to have a list of their names in front of me and I’ll just call on them by name in that really sickened tone of voice that makes it sound like the person whose name I’m calling is going to give me a root canal. Anyway, his level of charisma made me nostalgic for Gerald Ford.

The responses that I got to this illustrate one of the things that has me really depressed about the state of the union, so to speak.

I got a slight increase in unsubscriptions. (No big deal) I got three angry emails from people. (No big deal in and of themselves). Here’s an example:
I guess it’s always easier to attack a man’s personality if you can’t attack
their ideals and reasoning?

So be it. It’s your site. But you might remember that there are many in your audience who are intimately involved in the prosecution of this war, perhaps even differ from you and see the President as a decent man trying to do the right thing. And are deeply offended by your comments.

Just wanted to let you know how disappointed I am in your behavior, and that I won’t in good conscience be able to “sign on” and participate in the board. I joust with the best of them when I choose (and am dying to vent as part of this comment) but…not now.

I can’t avoid seeking out the whistle information on your site – it’s truly
remarkable. But I’ll be avoiding the “editorials” thank you. (And now I’ve
serious doubts that your reviews are not flavored by your politics as well.)
Hopefully I can avoid areas of the site where I’m belittled for my politics or
beliefs.

Sadly, I no longer feel welcome.

Note first of all that I said NOTHING about the war. Nor did I engage in a general critique of Pres. Bush.

Now, I’m not going to make a big deal out of a handful of upset people out of 3300. But, it just reminds me of how worried I am about what’s happening to us in the USA in the face of the current crisis.

If, as I did, we criticize the President even in a very narrow context, we are accused of being against the war. If we are against the war, we’re against America and FOR the bad guys. It is un-American to speak out. If we are against the war, then we “don’t support the heroes in the military.” In other words, if you are against the war/our president/the good people in the military, shut up.

Actually, I’m something of a moderate about this war situation. I could easily be convinced, I think, of circumstances under which military intervention in Iraq would be the right thing to do. But, let me get this off my chest:

For or against the war, we all diminish ourselves when we start demonizing each other for the very plurality of opinion upon which this nation is founded. So, now we’re hearing that if I’m an actor or in show business, I shouldn’t speak out against the war. We’re hearing that protestors are “aging hippies” and “young radicals with nothing else to do.” This ought to be familiar rhetoric to those of you who have been around awhile. Never mind that the protestors are, in fact, a cross-section of people of all ages and all walks of life. They are against our war/president/military so they must be freaks. Shut up.

I don’t know if this is “another Viet Nam” or not. But, like Viet Nam, it’s going to take a long time to undo the divisions in our country, not to mention the blow to US standing in the world. Surely, SURELY, even Mr. Bush’s defenders would agree that he has blown the diplomacy. Big time.

I hope that people are bullied into silence. Thus this post on our little forum here, since I’m not likely to get on MEET THE PRESS or anything.

Dale

2

Dale,
Thanks for your statement. I thought we had worked through the “criticizing someone’s actions means you hate him and everything he stands for” issue a couple of decades ago. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised that there are still people who think this way. What we thought was a battle for a generation seem actually to be a battle for all time. Peace, justice, diversity and tolerance are worth fighting for.
Mike

3

I always thought there was something odd about your whistle reviews. Now I know. It’s your political bias.

Issues of war aside, the President’s event was no more than a staged event, mimicing the form of a press conference. The moment where he actually read his notes about the planted reporter was disgraceful. It reminds me of the pretend events R. Nixon would stage during his election campaigns. The reporters who played along with the charade and allowed it are even more despicable. And I’m speaking as a former reporter.

One person wrote you:

Remember that there are many in your audience who are intimately involved in the prosecution of this war, … and see the President as a decent man trying to do the right thing.

This particular “news” event was not decent and was not right.

And, for what it’s worth, I support the war and it’s goals. And, like you, Dale, I think the diplomacy around it has been pathetic. That’s my two cents. [When did they take the cents symbol off the keyboard???]

4

Somebody wrote…

(And now I’ve
serious doubts that your [whistle] reviews are not flavored by your politics as well.)

Dale, sometimes you just have to take it in stride.

5

Dale:
Like some irresistable dance, we have been jiggin’ around the Iraq thing on the Forum, knowing full well that rich asked us to do it elsewhere.

I am frustrated too but for different things.

The nature and style of the protests are just as canned as your press conference example, as far as I am concerned. So i don’t quite agree that its just a putdown of aging hippies, etc. to comment on them.

The SF protests have become SO institutionalized now, that they are worried about whether they have enough DIVERSITY. The organizers are doing outreach to various victim groups to have a representative turnout. Affirmative action for protestors? Is that next?

They have been heartened for example, in a rise of Filipino protestors. Why? Because so many have been excluded from working the SF Airport under the new federalized guidelines for airport security. They are downright angry and the peace protest is their conduit for their outrage??

What in the HELL does that have to do with sincere protests against Iraqi invasion?

Bottom line is that both of us are discomfited by the Theatre of the Absurd. It just seems to be different troupes that bug us. But its all very theatrical and ratcheted up for emotional and psychological response.

That is my perspective advisory.

6

This topic has been very touchy among the Forum participants. This is probably why there were the overreactions to your lampooning of the President.

I think the reason the topic has been so heated is that, unlike in times past, people living in very disparate locales and situations, and in very different political climates are dialoguing on a regular basis. While once we all could have an us and them mentality, there is a new element when that language is used among such a varied and eclectic group. We still have the us and them manner of thinking and speaking, but our horizons have grown much faster than we’ve coped.

7

I as always enjoyed your coments in the newsletter. As far as the negative coments you recieved they are what I hear everyday in my work against this outrage we are about to perpitrate against not only the people of Iraq but the intire world. Of course my greatest fear is the demise of our constitution and bill of rights which are being compromised daily by this administration. The ideals that define us as a free nation. I have been unable to join the recent political “discussions” on the board simply because my time is totaly consummed in the work of protecting and defending these documents that lagitimise our existance as a nation. The press has decided to opt out of their responsibility to unbiased reporting or might I say any reporting at all. Things will get much worse before they get better but as someone who loves my country enough to try and protect it and what it stands for from with out and with in I have no choice but continue this struggle. Do not allow blind nationalisim keep you from speaking your mind.

Tom

8

Well, it seems to me your comments about the Bush persona
are well within the bounds of the permissible–part of
the American tradition of general disrespect for politicians,
which is a healthy thing.

However people
are edgy right now. Also there is a great deal of
America (and especially Bush) bashing which is, sadly,
intended to replace or subvert rational discussion
of the issues before us. It’s understandable, I think,
that people reading your comments jumped to the
conclusion that here comes more of the same.

The gist of the messages, as I read them,
isn’t that people are primarily telling you to shut up;
they’re telling you to attack Bush’s policy openly,
not the man. This is based on the misconception that
you are attacking Bush’s policy by taking a
pot shot at Bush, of course. Well, you
might see this sort of thing coming,
as there is a great deal of it going on..

There is a sort of sensitivity that Republicans
like myself have, because there is often
a presumption in the venues that we
frequent that we’re not there. Often
I really do feel unwelcome.
We can be a bit too quick on the
trigger in supposing that the ribbing
of someone for whom we voted is the
beginning of defining a venue as a political
club from which we will be excluded. At
the same time I think it’s worth remembering
that the problem is often real.
Appearances do matter. Best

9

¢ wasn’t on the IBM keyboard

10

Thanks.

11

dale,

i read and reread your comments and the comments of those you offended, several times, and i’ve gotta say, the disconnect and demonization doesn’t seem to be all on one side of the conversation. your characterization of the opinions of those others, based on the excerpts you quoted, seems rather unfair and even caricaturized. also, part of the reason for the reactions that have you worrying about the state of the union may be because we’ve been seeing some rather over the top comments on the board in recent weeks. a vocal minority of posters seem to think that those who support the iraq policy are “rich war mongering christians” (please feel free to editorialize about that quote from a recent post, one of several of that ilk) who march in mindless lockstep with the current president. i’ve only belonged to this board for a short time, but i’ve seen enough to know that that simply isn’t the case–most members are far more thoughtful than that, but clearly they don’t like the feeling of being preached at nor do they appreciate facile mischaracterizations. but then again, most of them don’t come here in order to defend their beliefs or politics–they probably do that in much of the rest of the lives, and are just tired enough of it to not feel like starting all over again here. :slight_smile:

12

Well, I am the booking agent for MEET THE PRESS and we’re looking for someone to represent the whistling aspects…just kidding. Regarding Bush’s press conference, it didn’t seem that bad to me at the time but in retrospect was pretty bad. He is not consistently a very good speaker and my thinking is he was trying to suppress the smirking he is prone to, only to end up coming across as a zombie.

As far as the reporters, in fairness to Bush he did call on several reporters from newspapers or networks not normally felt to be kind or sympathetic to Bush or the GOP. He did not call on Helen Thomas, but seeing as how she has been quoted calling GWB the worst president in history maybe you could forgive him that.

Finally, on the celebrities, they have every right to express their opinion. Where I have trouble, though is with the networks or print media’s unspoken implication that a celebrity’s opinion is somehow more valid than the average Joe’s just by virtue of their being a celebrity. Since the celebrities tend to be anti-Bush (sorry to use that term but in this case I think it’s accurate) a great deal of air and print time is given to one viewpoint which ultimately is no more valid than yours or mine. Some might chime in that this is necessary to balance out the Bush administration’s opinion, I would respond that a great deal of time is already given to opposing viewpoints from US and foreign politicians who are giving us their supposedly informed opinions.

Anyway, thanks for this forum.

13

I agree with you, Dale. It’s a little shocking how suddenly it would seem that, to some people, criticizing Dubya is treason. It’s not. He was elected (kind of).

I just spent a couple of weeks abroad on a medical mission trip. I was amazed at how we (big group of Americans . . . and yes, some of us were loud) were received. Most of my time was spent in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania; sure, the name’s Arabic, and yes, there were mosques galore. But the people were friendly and appreciative of what we were doing. Even the sizable Muslim population. No one really ever brought it up.

Same can be said for Amsterdam, where we spent a few days on the way back. The Dutch knew we were American, but they were all friendly and welcoming.

There’s one way we (those of us who’ll be here during the coming war) can prevent this from being another Viet Nam, and one way only. We can support the men and women of our armed forces. Not the President, not the Congress. Regardless of my own views on the war, they’re doing what they see is their duty. I’ll not make any of them unwelcome on their return.

Oh, and listening to the news today . . . When did Spain become our close ally? :roll: Has anyone ever gotten the idea that our government ever really cared about Spain until this whole thing? Nothing against Spain or the Spanish, of course.

Stuart

14

Thank you. I’ve been unclear. I don’t think the writer I quoted in my post was demonizing me. I thought he was going way beyond the content of my little comment about Bush’s press conference. I DO think that protesters are being demonized and you are quite correct in pointing out that the demonization works both ways. Thanks again.

And you’re probably right that this isn’t really the place for this discussion. It’s not really fair for me to use this as a venting place. My apologies.

Dale

15

You mean like Roosevelt blew the diplomacy with Hitler? Oh wait, no, you can’t use diplomacy with a psychopath. What a concept!

16

Dale,
The current aspect of this country demonizing those who have a differing opinion is getting just a little too scary. Are people forgetting that being able to voice ones opnions and discuss them is what makes this country the greastest? That the constitution guaruntees freedom of speech? That repressing those opinions drags us backwards 50 years to nazi Germany? Is this what the PC liberal left want to do to us? Or is it the conservative right trying to foster support? I think both actually.

Those who left the forum have every right to do but they have done so for the wrong reasons. Myself, I sit on the fence on this whole Iraq issue. If the rest of the world supported the action I would also but with so much negative response, I have to hesitate. Does that mean I don’t support our troops overseas? Hell No! I do what I can to let them know we care. In my job I deal with the military everyday and they know what we do for them.
Bush’s repsonse to 9/11? Great! Handling of Iraq? Poor at best. Don’t like my opinion, tell me yours. I won’t deny you but, don’t deny me.

Dale, would you like some freedom fries? France Germany and Russia should not be demonized either for differing opinions. You may not agree with their stance but they have every right to say what they do also. Lets not be hypocrits.

17

Dale, as one of the resident geeks, I feel it’s my duty to point out that you’re talking about three angry emails out of 3300 subscribers. That’s WAY outside the 2sigma. So, it’s not as though most or even many perceive that you’re out of bounds. I also think that those who think that criticizing the war effort is somehow unAmerican are a small but vocal minority.

Stuart, not only has Spain suddenly become our close ally over the war effort, but GWB has distanced us from Mexico, which I think is actually pretty significant, both because they’re such a close and necessary ally, but also because GWB has been such buddies with Mr. Fox.

Rando7, I agree with you about celebrities. Another thing that bugs me, in addition to what you pointed out, is that it seems almost like an abuse of power. It bugs me just as much when others use positions of power make public statements about things they have no expertise in. I no longer belong to the American Physical Society (the learned society of my field) because of their involvement in politics outside of science.

Jim, you hit a nail on the head with the comment about Republicans being made to feel unwelcome in various contexts. I’m not a Republican, nor even really a conservative by the modern definition. But I’m treated like one, both at work and by my family. Because I (gasp) consider individual issues and support some Republican policies, I’m perceived as some sort of ogre.

(edited for grammar)

18

In any group as large as the C&F subscriber base, there are gonna be a few hotheads. And, as already stated, everyone is tense, everyone is on edge, no one on any side of these issues is really comfortable with every aspect of what is happening in our country and in the world.

Lately every now and again I’m getting obscene entries in the guestbook on flutesite–I think because I have the American flag on the index page. So I’ve gotten careful to check the guestbook fairly often–but I’m not taking the flag down.

A very sad thing is that if our freedoms are diminished (including our freedom to criticize the government and its officials), then that flag doesn’t stand for quite as much as it used to. And that would be a great shame, because it belittles the blood that has been spilled to keep it flying.

If we throw our freedoms away in the name of conformity and solidarity, then we have ourselves accomplished what all the terrorists in the world could not: we have lessened what it means to be American.

That’s my $.02.

–James
www.flutesite.com

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There IS a lot of tension. I can’t remember a more difficult time in my life, except maybe 1967-72–around in there.

I just keep thinking about how it is with EVERY war. It comes down, in my mind, to all of these PEOPLE who have to go off and fight these things. All those children and spouses and parents at home. There is just so much at stake. I guess I just want us to always be right when we commit.

I guess people getting angry at each other and ridiculing each other, as we’re seeing so much of, beats the hell out of confronting how horrendous the whole thing really is. The horror that ALL of concede exists in war. Maybe that’s the only thing that can unite us in this–knowing that, just war or unjust war, the toll of human pain is impossible to really wrap your head around.

Thanks again to everyone.

Dale