OT: Calm and Slow FB Political Thread.

Irish Flute
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Alright. Since there were so much interest in my opinion here I have no choice but to start a Political thread to discuss these matters.

I said in another thread that (Real) Capitalism to me is just as bad a Communism and has probably caused just as much pain, death and suffering historically. This is probably really hard to prove. You can prove that Sovjet under the dictator Stalin had a lot of blood on it’s hands, insane numbers of political murders and so on. If anyone can estimate a number it would be welcome.
The direct opposite of Sovjet has to be USA right? Afterall wasn’t those the prime two sides in the Cold War.
Most people knows of USA’s direct involvemen in world politics. They are quick to send out huge armed forces to very remote places of the world without having support of UN and so on. When they see an opportunity to support their own economy they don’t really seem to care much about civilian deaths and so on. You have probably got this alot before from the likes of me. The main problem with Capitalism to me is that capitalists -first off all- want’s to make a profit. -Second- Don’t really care what devastating effects it has. This is the reason why many wars arise and the reason why our earth is so polluted.

But generally USA’s politics is a bit more smooth. It is often based largely on sneak war to protect their interests. I don’t have an accurate number handy but I’ve heard of many, many sepparate cases when the United States has overthrown democratically elected regimes and replace them with “friendly” dictators that would start terrorising people and cause insane number of deaths. The reason for this is often commercial or political interests. This sort of politics makes it quite hard to account for all the bad things USA has caused, but it is nevertheless alot of blood. I hope you are all aware of the fact that Usama Bin Laden for example where “hired” by the United States to take control in Afganistan, mainly to erase any communist presence in the area. The enemies at that time was pretty much the same people that USA has helped to power now when Usama turned against them. This is a classical example. USA protects their interests by helping a dictator to power. I guess they didn’t care at that time what kind of mad man Usama was. How he treated the Afganistan people or how many deaths he caused. As long as he was USA friendly. Then after September 11th and the tradgedy of the Twin Towers there was another sound in the horn. This is something that I hope you have all heard about, you should have.
But below will follow a few examples of similar cases that you might or might not be familiar with.

  • Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez (General of El Salvador): Year 1931. USA supports the general Maximiliano so that he can take the power in El Salvador by force. During his reign of terror from 1931 to 1944 he is murdered +100 000 people in El Salvador. Still today, a USA supported regime without popular support has power in El Salvador.

Rafael Leonidas Trujillo (President of the Dominican Republic):
Year 1916. USA ockupies the Dominican republic and helps President Trujillo to power. He used anticommunism as an excuse for several mass deportations, execusions and terror. For example: workmen that asked for a raise were considered communists and were shot directly. He used slave workers from Haiti at the sugar plantages and year 1937 he gave them the blame for lower profits and killed 20 000 of them. A great friend of America he was ntil 1961 when he was finally murdered by CIA after having turned against them.

General Humberto Branco (President of Brazil):
1964 was a bad year for the people of Brazil. That was when Brazils democratically elected president Goulard was overthrown. The reason for this was that his politics had become unacceptable to USA. He traded with communist countries and he supported the workerclass and he limited the amount of profit a multinational company could gain in Brazil. USA supported General Branco to take power. His reign was short but brutal. There is no real account to this day of how many he killed but atleast several thousand (including women and children) were accused of being communist and were never seen no more.

General Agusto Pinochet (President of Chile)
Chile had been a democracy for 150 years until 1973, when the democratically elected president Allende was overthrown by a CIA and ITT. General Agusto Pinochet siezed power with support from USA and during his reign he has killed tens of thousands of Chile citizens. Everyone knew what was going on in Chile because of Amnesty International reports but USA continued to support Pinochet and hold him under their arm. He was finally overthrown in 1990.

Adolf Hitler (Chanselor of Germany):
Everyone knows of Adolf Hitler as one of historys most vicious and mad dictators. What most people don’t know tough is that for a long time he had a great deal of support from USA. USA based companies like Ford, DuPont, Standard Oil of New Jersey, Davis Oil Co and Chase National Bank provided the Germans with products to aid their machine of war. President Roosevelt knew about this all along and allowed this because it helped prevent another economic crash in the US. At the same time, the USA refused to support German/Jewish refugees because they “would not do business with the enemy”.

Here were some of the examples of USA foreign politics historically. These were just some of the cases of United States supported dictators and terror regimes. I have more than 30 more examples right here if somebody really wants them.

Now… I’m not a communist and I am definetely not a supporter of Stalin, Castro, Mao or others like those. I’m not a terrorist or a supporter of terrorism in any way. I just feel that this politic as it is practised by USA and has been for a long time is just as bad as Communism, Muslim fanaticism (or any religious fanaticism for that matter) or all the other ideologies you hate and fear so much. There is a reason why USA is target for so much hatred worldwide. There is a reason why targets in USA are attacked by terrorists. All this terror practised by USA strikes back sooner or later, and I fear that. USA is to me just as big a threat to world peace as their enemies.

I hope this will change soon so we can have a peaceful world to live in. I hope USA will change it’s foreign politics, because they could do so much good for this world and help aid world peace and enviromental issues (Start by signing the Kyoto Contract).
I love most of the Americans I have met. Wonderful people, great hospitality and so on. I love America, it’s an impressive country. But I sincerely hope these things will change, before it’s too late.

My 2 cents.

//Henke

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Gosh !

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Indeed yes.

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Pannalal


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Well, I think Henke was at least the least bit serious . . . so I’ll take up the gauntlet.

Unfortunately, I think Henke’s missed a couple of important points. One is that every country acts in its own best interests. The country that doesn’t won’t exist for long. We did support, for lack of a better word, bin Laden when he was in Afghanistan. What was the purpose of that support? He was waging war on the Russians (or, more accurately, the Soviets). We saw the Soviets as a huge threat, and we did do a lot of stuff that wasn’t fair or nice during the Cold War.

Second, you can look through the history of any country and find all kinds of evil they’ve done. The French have supported horrible regimes in Africa, and thereby condoned and even supported genocide. The French still support such regimes. The Chinese have invaded Tibet and all but eradicated Tibetan culture. Europe as a whole (or perhaps more specifically Western Europe) profited from and was complicit in the destruction of the cultures and the deaths of millions of natives/aboriginals in North and South America.

Have we done this in Iraq? No. Have we caused some problems in Iraq? Are things better in Iraq? That’s very arguable. If you were to watch the “neutral” BBC, for example, you can see Iraqis interviewed who seem to think they’re worse off. If you watch other sources, or read other sources, you find that in fact there are Iraqis who think they’re better off under the occupation than they were when Hussein was in power.

Oh, yeah, remember the Kurds? Ask a Kurd if he or she feels safer now.

I will not defend all that the US has done, nor likely will do. It’s extremely easy these days, particularly from the ivory tower that is Western Europe, to point the finger at the US and claim that we’re responsible for all that’s wrong in the world. It’s not exactly helpful, either. Lots of rhetoric, no solutions. None of this is easy.

Stuart

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This is why many recent events are so alarming. The examples you cite illustrate the Gov. forwarding the U.S. economy by measures such as these. The recent trend towards privatization of many aspects of gov. (education, armed forces, ect.) is leading to military ventures not to help the U.S. economy, as in years past, but to improve profits of a few corporations, regardless of the effect on the overall economy. A corporation by definition has no morals, it exists solely to make a profit for its shareholders. The prisoner abuse scandal didn’t shock me half as much as finding out that those doing the interrogations were private contractors. What is happening is that we are slowly becoming The United Corporations of America.

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Right you are, oh blessed father.
Stuart, this country is not acting in my best interests, nor in the best interests of most of its citizens.
Do you think the Iraq venure is in our (the ordinary citizens’) interests, or motivated by some humantarian impulse? Who is profiting from this war?

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Recently, critics have decried the lack of objectivity in Michael Moore’s film, Fahrenheit 9/11. But even if only ten per-cent of the film is true, there are huge problems with the Bush administration.

In the film we see elected and appointed government officials, acting in government capacities, ensuring the flow of wealth to private businesses and corporations to which they are connected.

We see Bush and Cheney involving the country in a war that brings huge profits to private investors, who in turn make enormous contributions to their political campaigns. To deny this is fatuous.

There is a deep connection between Cheney, Halliburton and government contracts. As many Republicans now observe, the war is about oil. And not just about oil, but about oil profits.

We see Bush, in the movie, saying to an audience of campaign contributors: “You are the haves and the have-mores. I call you ‘My Base.’’ This is a central point in the movie. It happened. It is undeniable. It is hard to understand why working people support this man, whose base is the ultra-wealthy.

This much at least seems true in the film. Forget the cheap pot shots about Bush on vacation, playing golf and fishing, or his temporary paralysis on being told about 9/11. Forget about flying the Bin Ladens out of the country immediately after the attack. If only ten per-cent of the film is true we are all in trouble.

If Moore did libel the Bush/Bin Laden families they have ample recourse in the courts. However, there has been no legal challenge to Moore’s claims of corruption and misuse of power.

Fahrenheit 911 may be propaganda. But propaganda is not always a lie.

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Sturob if you had said that the administration of any country acts in it’s own interests I could agree with you. It is not clear that the " War of Haliburton’s Profit ", if I have the name right, was in the interests of The USofA, having alienated so many around the world , increased the dangers from Islamic madmen, and possibly turned Iraq into an emerging Islamic state which Iran may well seek to annex.
We all know of America’s footprint in the Middle East, Bush’s extremist Christian Crusade against anybody who doesn’t agree with him, and the Bush/Blair attempt to justify invading anybody they don’t approve of in spite of international law as it stands at present.
If the States is so desperate for oil it could start by using less. Any responsible regime would take a long term view of these things.

Glauber, why is that chap kissing a religious (?) scroll ?

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I see two problems with your post. First, quoted above, is the assertion that political philosophies cause pain. They don’t, the way that people implement them does. Pain and suffering are not inherent in political systems, they’re inherent in human society. The capitalist and communist approaches to government simply seek remedies using different methods. Both would work if people were perfect. (Was it Aristotle or Socrates who said something to the effect, “In a society of perfect men, laws would be unnecessary”?) The problem is, when you give to each according to his needs, he has no motivation toward the from each according to his abilities part. And in a capitalist society, as has been pointed out, one of the strongest forces is the corporation, which is amoral. If we had perfect information flow, it would make capitalism run a lot more smoothly.

The other flaw is that you seem to be equating perfect capitalism with the US. In some ways the US is more capitalistic than most of western Europe, but I wouldn’t hold it up as the paragon of capitalism. For example, the government here heavily subsidizes some industries and at times indulges in a lot of cronyism, both of which are anti-capitalist. Also, all of the foreign invasions that you cite didn’t happen because of the US’s free markets, these were political actions; I don’t think any country can boast of having leaders who don’t make mistakes, nor leaders who haven’t occasionally wielded more power than they should have.

Interesting thread – I hope that the whistlers don’t find out about it and inundate us with a lot of, uhmm, heated rhetoric. :slight_smile:

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That’s a big bansuri. When he was 9 years old, a Sadhu told Panalal Ghosh that the flute would be his soul’s salvation.

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Ooops! Sorry! he was 11.

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Sorry he was so suggestible !

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I heard this morning that the POWs in Abu Greib were living “knee-deep in mud”, and were also defecating and urinating in this same mud. Just by that you can see what kind of people they are, no? You don’t see American soldiers living and defecating in the same mud, do you?

I also heard that the person responsible for the feeding of the prisoners was having a lot of trouble getting the American companies contracted, to deliver the food. When the food started coming, it contained “bugs”, dirt, and rats", and was causing the prisoners to vomit. This person dutifully asked to be provided with “food that wouldn’t cause the prisoners to vomit”, thinking that this would go a long way towards preventing problems, but the American company providing the food responded back that there are no bugs, dirt or rat in the food provided.

The report this morning didn’t mention the name of the American company that was providing this excellent protein-enhanced food.

And it’s probably all lies anyway.

Born in Barisal, East Bengal (now Bangladesh) on July 31, 1911, Amulya Jyoti (nicknamed Pannalal) Ghosh was a child prodigy. He inherited his love of music and the bamboo flute (bansuri) from his grandfather, Hari Kumar Ghosh who played sitar,tabla,and pakhawaj and learned sitar from his father, Akshay Kumar Ghosh. He also learned music from his maternal uncle, Bhavaranjan Mazumdar who was a vocalist. The family first lived in the village of Amarnathganj and later moved to the town of Fatehpur.

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Glauber; Have you heard of this fellow Brazilian… Mr Pascoal.
Bad Ass flute player (also played a pig!) :astonished:

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Yes, Hermeto Pascoal. Amazing guy. Albino. Best known for accordion, but also big on the bass flute.

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Correct! a really amazing guy. I have seen him and his band several times
blew me away with the music.
I wish I could have seen him and Airto together in Quarteto Novo.
Is he big in Brazil?

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The sick thing about the torture of prisoners by US forces and contractors is that everybody involved knows perfectly well that at least 70 % of those suffering have been innocent of anything.
For the authorities to allow the mass of prisoners to be tortured to improve the chance of some of them giving useful information is a huge evil going right to the top of the army and beyond, to to alcohol impaired top.

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Well, I never said it was cut-and-dried, but thankfully those of you who read this forum have been able to boil all of this down into the salient bits. Or have you?

I have said that I think that Michael Moore is out to make a buck. That comment is instantly retorted with one to the effect that he is, at heart, an activist, and that there are easier ways to make a buck. Can I not use the same argument with Iraq? Are the US/UK/Australia (you name your coalition member) so collectively stupid that the only way they can conceive of making money is to fight an unpopular war in Iraq? Again, there’s got to be more to it than that.

As the dust settles from 9/11 (the date, not the film), it appears that the whole situation IS more complicated. I’ve heard liberals and conservatives concede that there was a connection between Hussein and al-Qaeda. Hussein was trying to cleanse Iraq ethnically by exterminating the Kurds. It also now appears that Hussein really was trying to get raw materials for nuclear weapons.

Do those of you who so oppose the war really think it was fought purely for profit? Really?

And I agree that the treatment of prisoners in Abu Ghareib (or however you anglicize it) is atrocious. But wow, perspective. We think it’s bad that their conditions are filthy and they’re eating food that’s got bugs in it. Hey, they don’t have to wonder if today’s the day they’re going to have to watch their wives/sisters/mothers raped now, do they? Or if today’s the day they’re going to have a limb amputated. Oh, amputated is too clinical a word. How about hacked off?

So, I suppose what all of you are saying is that it’s OK that France profiteers/profiteered from genocide in sub-Saharan Africa, but that this apparent profiteering by the US is what’s really bad? Do you really think that Islamic extremists pose/posed no threat to the US? Nothing good has come from the war?

Educate me.

Stuart

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sorry.Tried to unintentionally hijack your political thread. Just got a little carried away with the beauty of this amazing brazilian bloke playing his bass flute. :boggle: