People who felt that way had the option of posting, of course.
Not only is it not trivial; it almost certainly isn’t true. The option you ignore is that what influenced the election was a combination of factors, chief amongst them the Spanish government’s utterly pathetic reaction to the event. Blaming ETA looked like, and might well have actually been, a cynical ploy to maximise the chances of re-election.
Our own Prime Minister, who also faces an election later this year, claimed that it was implausible to think either that Iraq policy had anyhting to do with this or that it increased the likelihood of a similar event happening in Australia; this despite the fact that Al Quaeda not only claimed reponsibility but explicatly cited Iraq as the reason. This strikes me as at best criminally naive.
I was heartened, after the Bali bombings, at the number of Americans on this board who expressed sympathy with the Balinese and Australians (who constituted most of the victims) when I changed a thread to reflect the breaking news. True, it generated far less interest than minor troubles internal to the U.S. Since Australia’s alliance with the U.S. was one of the principle reasons though, I was a little puzzled that it wasn’t perceived by more as indirectly ‘internal.’ I mean, every country’s international credibility is on the line all the time.
Now, this finally does it. Dang, your cynicism and cultural self-loathing is so frustrating, Susan. A lot more people give a @#$$ than you will ever allow, it seems. I will answer why I did not post a note.
I felt a very strong empathy for the Spanish people for various personal and social reasons. I thought of this Board and pondered posting a message of sorrow and wondered how our European posters were feeling, being in closer proximity to this event; having their own fears because the rail system is so vulnerable and so essential to daily life there.
But I knew it would turn into a diatribe against Bush, so i chose not to. Also, it remained to be seen, at the time, who ignited the bombs. On the one hand, it seemed logical that it was Al Quaida. On the other hand, it would be logical that they would claim responsibility in any case because frankly, they need a lift for their cause because the Coalition has taken the battle to them in Afghanistan.
My very first thought was: what do the Basques want so badly that they would do this? Then, the second-guessing about perpetrators began.
And I think Jens is right. It was a popular outpouring of anger and impotence by the electorate. Puts the “mob” in the “mob rule” that our Founding Fathers wished to dilute and de-rail. Had they postponed the elections, it would have been seen as crooked perhaps so they had to proceed. But they probably should have done so in the name of a national emergency. Hindsight…
I wish the new government the best of luck. I just hope they don’t take the “police action” tactic toward terrorism, because it does not work. Clinton tried it for years and you saw where it got us. No, I am not trying to bash him but he followed that tactic and I think its inappropriate with Islamo-Fascist butchers.
To return to first point, the US IS a generous and open-hearted country, even if our leader’s policies are reviled at present. We give aid whenever and wherever we can and we have done so for decades. Just because cyncial media bosses “manage” the perceptions of what we SUPPOSEDLY care about doesn’t mean we are shallow and heartless. I think that Susan’s statement would not go over well with 9/11 widows and a lot of New Yorkers at the moment. I bet you that they relived some awful moments when the news broke. But once again, the confusion over Basque versus AlQuaeda diluted the reaction, I think.
Despite the overwhelming evidence, via media, that we all really care about J-Lo and Britney, I find cognitive dissonance in that assertion. Of those shallow things, I care not a whit. Of the young tweener consumers to whom those messages are conveyed, I know they are still kids and being targeted for their dollars.
If I may second some of this, it was pretty hard to know
who was behind the bombings, inititially. The explosives
were those used by Basque terrorists, the news stories
said the Spanish government said it was Basques,
the Basque terrorists were denying involvement,
we were following closely and waiting to see how
things sorted out. It would be a mess to jump
in prematurelyand there would be some
big dispute. Also, there have been
lots of complaints about OT threads, lately;
especially about wars and politics, and
people are erring on the side of
not posting. Damned if we do, damned
if we don’t.
As mentioned, it is nowhere written that the
people who feel there should be a thread
about this cannot start it. Not somebody
else’s job.
Best
I don’t think it’s in humanity that we must have faith in, but in knowing ourselves what is “the right” and what is “the wrong” thing to do. I am not going to trust any collectiv, I can only trust in what I myself can do.
We can hope that people will be able to talk to each other more “reasonably” in the future, …but it ain’t gonna happen. People on a large scale are just too different to be able to compromise to such an extent that they could settle their differences without bloodshed (mind you, on a large scale that is). It’s quite depressing, I know, but one of the greatest lies in humanity is that:
“people change”.
they don’t.
I’m sorry to have to point this out but the evidence of the general correctness of Susan’s claim is on this board for all to see. I don’t normally get this involved in political matters, but for anyone who doubts her claim, compare the reaction here to the Bali bombings with the massive outpourings of grief for the loss of far, far fewer American lives in admittedly symbolically important circumstances.
I refuse to give specific examples, not because I can’t, but because I’m not pointing the finger at specific individuals, nor do I want to make anyone feel bad about what they did or didn’t react to, and also because I don’t want to trivialise, by implication, events which genuinely warranted grief. But I simply want to ask people to be a bit more reflective about the extent to which geographical and national proximity tends to distort our sense of the magnitude of events.
I simply took Susan to be making this point in a rather blunt way.
Susan, I was quite upset when I heard about the tragedy in Spain. Stuff like this pisses me off more than anything else, I just didn’t feel the need to post about it as I figured somebody else would, and looky here, they did.
Or maybe some of us are just tired of OT threads and so don’t post much any more on them. I am infuriated whenever Al Queda strikes, whether it be in Africa, Bali or Spain, but don’t feel the need to bare my heart on C&F. It doesn’t mean I don’t care, especially in this instance. My very favroite Irish friend, who has been such a gracious hostess and tour guide to me so many times on my trips to Ireland, recently moved to Spain. I was worried sick about her until she emailed me that she was all right. I’m sure there are many C&Fers who care deeply when these tragedies strike but don’t feel any need to cry here on a whistle board about it. No, Susan’s comments aren’t based on any truth about the folks on this board. They only come from her own inner anger.
Just ask yourself, Wombly, what is your basis for thinking that? Is it real Americans you talk to, or what you read in the papers???
Its the PAPERS who insist on putting the amounts of Americans dead first as though other nationalities are less. This enrages me at times, especially after plane crashes. “Three Americans killed, then a bunch of others from god knows where” Othertimes, I just have to accept it, then endure brickbats like yours that we just don’t care here.
When the papers/electronic media CHOOSE to illuminate a tragedy elsewhere, the country has a knee-jerk reaction of compassion via dollars, supplies etc. Often, a ravaged location will actually ask for LESS material and more money because we give so much.
The average compassionate human being can relate to someone else’s tragedy. The average philosophically-inclined human knows that suffering is universal and that death, mayhem, national and tribal injustices occur all the time, everywhere. Any attempt to somehow isolate one country over another in collective compassion is highly suspect to me. It tells me more about the comfort zone of reality of the critic, than the facts of those being criticized.
This faulty thinking reminds me of a prevailing view that members of victim groups have a “higher moral authority” than their former oppressors. Columnists like Leonard Pitts use this term a lot. Just because black people were once enslaved, he reasons, they now have a higher moral authority when it comes to sensing and pronouncing injustice. BS. To grant such a distinction is a mistake, and I reject your Australian judgement that somehow your countrymen care more about the rest of the world than I do. Do you have higher moral authority because your country is not as powerful and is in a better position to be objective about the less powerful? That’s what I suspect of many of the critics.
To insist that somehow the US is less concerned about humankind is to take an unfair shot at the biggest, richest country.
The effete editors of the NY Times, the blow-dried talking heads of the major news networks and others infuriate me with their smug beliefs that they know how and what to deliver to the American people. Yes, I can just hear the quick retort that we still buy their product so it must be what we want. If nothing else, the Internet, including this Forum, has shown the divergence of opinions and priorities in daily life, and that the major media outlets are NOT supplying us with what we want and need. The networks have been losing ratings like crazy. The initial success of CNN, as a “worldwide” agency of press, showed that people wanted a more global view of things.
THE media elites are also the ones who have decided that WE must think that a European (Caucasian) life is more important than others and report accordingly. They encourage this attitude every damn day and I hate it.
Yes, our country is huge and takes up a lot of the newsprint just to cover what happened here today. It doesn’t mean that we don’t care.
Permit me to disagree. Speaking for myself, I viewed these
events with horror and despair. Some of the other
‘political OT post culprits’ have written in this thread
explaining in detail why they didn’t post. None of us are much
interested in malls; we have strong international interests.
Some of us have lived and travelled all over the world;
some of us have deeper and more informed international
commitments than people posting from outside the USA.
We have been taking a blasting lately for posting about
these things, some of it coming from people
who are now complaining that we didn’t.
We;ve stopped.. In all fairness, we can’t have
it both ways. Doubtless being human we might react more to
a massacre here than there, but the idea that
we didn’t post because we didn’t care keenly
about what happened in Spain is utterly
mistaken. We care at least as much as you do.
The argument from the Bali example
is jumping to conclusions. best
Yes to Jim’s point. I have stopped posting any kind of political OTs for reasons he stated as well as Blackhawk’s statement, notwithstanding posts above which were in reaction to others. I still think its fun to make sociological comments and enjoy the collected humor of chiffy-dom. This is a funny bunch of people, including the ones who hate my opinions.
Susan can defend herself; she doesn’t need me to do that. But, rightly or wrongly, I thought that people were responding to a bit of vivid rhetoric rather than a valid underlying point.
Whether the point I mean is Susan’s point I don’t know. But, as I said, out of good taste and consideration for people here who I like very much and who might be hurt by the thought that I meant them, I won’t elaborate further. I’m not asking anyone to look back with guilt, so I’m not accusing anybody; rather I’m asking all of us to look forward with more of a sense of perspective. And I do mean all of us, and not just U.S. citizens. Certainly, I hope it was obvious that I didn’t mean anyone to take my remark personally. If not, I’ve just said it again.
Although we fight in very different divisions, both America and Australia punch above their weight on the international stage. Australia’s strategic position and relative affluence mean that, although in the flyweight division, we pack a bigger punch. But, because of our size we realise this. Our nearest neighbour happens to be the largest Islamic nation on earth. Realistically, we have no choice but to listen to what Islamic countries are saying but we have a government which is currently refusing to do this. I find this frightening. America, I guess, is a light heavyweight punching as a superheavyweight. India and China both have populations of over a billion and with globalisation and outsourcing they will play an increasingly prominent role in the medium term. There is an old Chinese curse: may you live in interesting times. We live in interesting times. My main point is really just this: we all have to learn to listen better, and in places we might have felt we could safely ignore in the past.
I don’t check the board every day, don’t post much, and almost never read OT posts (I’m too darn opinionated and I just don’t have the patience or the time for arguing), but even I was quite surprised that no one posted anything sooner.
In May, my husband, son and I will be relocating to Spain (my husband’s homeland). His family is in Valencia and they did not lose anyone they personally knew in the Madrid bombing. My husband was struck, however, by what seemed to be a lack of interest by most Americans. I think the board probably just reflects this.
Every day is a gift,
Sheryl
The Spanish elections are now over, and the finer stats just appeared.
It appears as a statistical fact that the tories were mostly overthrown by the Basque people: the Basque Autonomy is the area of the country which mostly helped to give the votes to the Labour.
More than this; the percentage of Basque voters raised by 10% more than in the rest of the country: roughly from five out of ten to 6/10.
Interviews out of the Basque vote offices:
"We were so relieved they finally had to admit it was not us
- It was a close call, but this time we didn’t have to bear this shame; we’re so tired of this all
- Aznar wanted to call the rap on us, and this is why we went to vote; I felt like if I voted for the first time in my life.
- They wanted to frame us, we got even…" (etc.)
So much for those who conclude it’s fear of terrorists which changed things in Spain: the stats just proved that it’s an angry reaction, maybe, but to the attempt of an opportunistic manipulation of opinion by the former government.
Of course, some could forget all what they said before, and argue now that the manic muslim killers are after are so shrewd they anticipated everything including a Basque proudness factor which its own government was inapt to forecast… :roll:
I personnally believe that Spain globally just gave us in Europe a lesson of true democracy, and resistance to ALL kinds of manipulation. To terrorism, as they ofen do, with dignity; to a police they learnt to distrust as the state-owned media channels, with ballot papers.
I hate to break it to you Wombat, but what the Islamic world, at least the faction that’s producing the terrorists, wants is for the Western world to drop dead and disappear. Ultimately nothing less will please them. These aren’t folks you can sit down and calmly ask to pretty please stop blowing people up.
Intelligence and police action have had good results in Italy, France and (though less threatened) Germany, so far. The number of authentic and large-scale islamic actions dismantled in these countries for the six past months (not to mention years) is impressing. It seems it also spared UK pretty well. Now, maybe the Spanish polices acted in earnest, and didn’t watch anything else but Basques.
Btw, the terrorist issue was scheduled as The first priority by the European Community (including UK). It may deal differently with the problem, and maybe only because it doesn’t have the means for massive “preventive” bombings, especially on the wrong nest (if Al Qaeda is alive in Irak and Turkey… it seems to be in the “allied” Kurdistan).
Now there’s no evidence this cheaper, less mediatic, approach is less efficient–immediately as in the long run.
I had thought to post something on the subject, but was at a loss of what to say. On another forum I simply requested prayers for those affected. We are so saddened to see natural disasters, but, when man takes it upon himself to create these tragedies, it is the more troubling.
If you read the earlier posts in this thread, Sheryl,
I think you will find another explanation.
I’m saddened that a thread that began with
an expression of sympathy to the Spanish people
so quickly turned to criticizing people in this
forum for not doing what the critics have
repeatedly appealed to them not to do.
This thread strikes me as mean spirited,
and at the worst imaginable juncture.
Let me say this clearly: anybody with
fingers and internet access who complaiins
that there was no thread here earlier
is in bad faith. Why should anybody else
be more responsible for its absence than
yourself?
Back to music. Best
They would be happy enough if the west converted to their brand of religion, perhaps.