My heart goes out to Wombat, the other Aussies on the board, and to all those innocents from various nations who are the latest victims of these hateful, craven bastards…words cannot suffice, of course, to ease the loss; and the world seems to go a little bit more mad each day. May peace be with you…and with us all, somehow, some day.
I live in Perth(Western Australia) and I can tell you the proximity of the attack definately makes you feel vulnerable. Not that we werent all aware of the possibility of something like this happening but when it does it brings home the gravity of the situation enveloping the world at the moment. I will not say much, but I will endorse what has been said above that the vast majority of muslims are innocents like ourselves and dont let the actions of the few tarnish your view of the many. Australians traveling in indonesia have reported that when everybody heard of the bombing many of the locals approached them and offered kind words and condolences. That is what humanity is all about. Who of us are really informed as to what our governments are doing without our knowledge that may provoke such extreme action? Granted, the terrorists have no right to take innocent lives. They can never be justified in their actions, but I will withhold my judgement of these people. I do not know exactly what makes them do what they do. I admit that I feel anger towards these terrorists, it would be odd if I didn’t, sometimes the rational mind must try to look past the emotion to what motivates these people. I will probably never understand. In the words of Ned Kelly the most famous Australian Bush Ranger just before his execution “Such is Life”
Simon
First let me thank all those who offered prayers and emotional support to the Australians in our little community and to all the others affected by this disaster. Do we have a Balinese fippler yet? They play bamboo flutes very well. (I’d be amazed if my fellow Australians don’t echo my thanks.) If Nick’s figures are right, Britain has also suffered terribly in this.
I changed the title of this thread from one intended as a jokey celebration of an annual football rite shared by Irish and Australian folk because this is the sort of thing we can’t and mustn’t ignore. (Those who saw and participated in the match in Dublin on Sunday obviously couldn’t ignore it either although, quite rightly, our celebration went ahead in the usual spirit.) September 11 was not something we could have ignored, nor should we have done so. This is clearly connected, it is the worst attack since that awful day, and the groups we most strongly suspect have the US clearly in their sights too.
I agree entirely with those who correctly insist that we must not go looking for scapegoats here, even though we are right to address our anger towards the real culprits and we must do all we can to ensure they don’t repeat this atrocity. Taptone put this side of the matter in perspective very well. Indonesia is a society that is in danger of falling apart at the seams. Some groups are clearly trying to stir up religious and ethnic hatred and have been doing so for some time with considerable success. This act probably has as much to do with provoking a reaction from the West which will help to polarise Indonesians further as it has to do with attacking Westerners because of who we are. It’s all very complex, but when you live on the rim of Asia, this is what you live with. Get our response right and we go some way towards easing tensions. Getting it wrong doesn’t bear thinking about.
Thanks again.
John
I can only echo many of the sentiments expressed on this board. The one point I would emphasise is that this is not about Muslims being the problem; they have a fine and very good religion. After all, a stroll through 2,000 years of Christian history is not necessarily good reading.
Terrorists are terrorists no matter what the colour of their cloth, be they Al Qaeda, IRA, UDF, Red Brigade, Hamas, whatever. The lowest of the low, cowards of the worst kind.
Together with countries who do the same thing and call it war and/or self defense.
In vain men kill and hurt and maim,
And make their evil pacts,
In vain they claim Almighty’s name,
And do such wicked acts.
When men spread hate and call it good,
Deception reigns supreme.
But in sweet love and brotherhood,
The face of God is seen.
If men walk not in peace and love,
Their faith is just a show,
For love and truth come from above,
And hatred from below.
For Satan manifests in death
And wanton terror schemes.
While life is found within God’s breath,
And in love’s golden beams.
by
15 October 2002
Very nice Walden - why not put it to music?
Terrorism is often defined as the deliberate
use of violence, or the threat of
violence, against innocent people to
accomplish a political purpose.
‘Political’ is construed widely
to include ending animal experimentation,
driving people out of an area,
or forcing a government to do
what you want, including surrender
in war.
In England about 15 years ago, animal
rights activists said they had put
poison chocolate bars on store
shelves in London; they would divulge
the whereabouts only if their agenda
on behalf of animals was advanced.
Later they
admitted it was all a hoax. Terrorism,
because of the threat
of violence against innocent people
to accomplish a political end.
The attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
were terrorism. We deliberately
targeted non-combatants in order
to terrorize the Japanese government
into surrendering unconditionally.
Japan was already willing to surrender,
but not unconditionally–didn’t want to be occupied.
The bombing of Dresden was
meant to kill civilians so as
to demoralize the German people
so they would press the government
to end the war.
America and Britain went
over with concussion bombs
to make rubble, then fire bombs
to set the rubble afire so that non-combatants
would roast. I believe we killed
over 200,000 people in one night
at Dresden. Terrorism.
In wartime innocent
people are defined as non-combatants,
that is, people who aren’t engaged in
harming our forces. Civilian
munitions workers are counted
as combatants, soldiers who have
surrendered are non-combatants.
The Nazi practice of randomly
rounding up people on the street
in Paris and shooting them
after a resistance attack was terrorism.
If a government uses excessive
force against protesters,
and engages in military
operations in ways that
show disregard for
civilian casualties,
and it appears that the
disregard is motivated by
a desire to make
ordinary people suffer until they
elect a responsible leadership,
that’s terrorism.
The massacre of civilians so as
to terrify people into
leaving their homes and land
is terrorism.
On the other hand, the Japanese
attack on Pearl Harbor wasn’t
terrorism–the target was
military. Ted Bundy wasn’t
a terrorist–no political motive.
Massacre as sheer
vengeance isn’t terrorism.
The Holocaust wasn’t terrorism–
it was just meant to get rid
of unwanted people
Is terrorism ever justified?
I think the attack on Hiroshima
was justified. We couldn’t leave
the Japanese government in place
or we would fight them again
in ten or fifteen years. The
alternative to the nuclear
attacks was invasion. We
would have killed far more
innocent people as a side effect
(largely by starvation) than
we killed in the nuclear attacks.
If we are going to kill innocent people
no matter what we do,
and killing some innocents intentionally
will save many more innocent lives,
than I think it is morally permissible
to save those lives.
This may be a very bad
argument. In any case it
leaves me in the uncomfortable
position of saying that
terrorism is sometimes
justified–though
only under extraordinary
conditions. Best
On 2002-10-15 13:08, jim stone wrote:
The Holocaust wasn’t terrorism–
it was just meant to get rid
of unwanted people
It is most definitely NOT my view that the Jews are an unwanted people, unless you meant as perceived by the Nazis of course.
Right. That’s what I meant. They
would have killed me if they
could have. My parents were Jews. Best
The folling is NOT spoken in defense of terrorists. Kill them all, I say!!
Let me tell you what the terrorists are fighting against. Two things primarily:
A: US support for Israel.
B: “Western cultural influence”, especially on the young. We in the West call it “Hollywood”, but it’s the same thing.
Here’s the irony: Does any member of C&F think the Palestinians are getting a good deal? Few, if any, probably. Does any member of C&F think that the influence of Hollywood is a good thing? Again, few, if any.
Ironic!
(Just read Jim Stone’s stuff: Jim, you speak foolishly)
[ This Message was edited by: whitmores75087 on 2002-10-15 20:56 ]
Well, if I’ve spoken foolishly,
it’s hardly the first time.
I agree with everything you’ve
just said, except I think their
B is getting American troops out
of the country where Mecca is
located. That’s what they say
it is, anyhow. I agree they
dislike Hollywood, etc. but I
don’t think they’re sufficiently
exercised over that to kill us. Best
Just a few brief comments about some of the themes developing here.
- We don’t yet know exactly who perpetrated this latest outrage, although we have a pretty good idea. It is unlikely to be Al Qaeda directly although you can be fairly sure that those responsible have ‘links’, as they say, with known extremist groups. It is very unlikely to be Saddam Hussein. Extremist Islamic groups are loosely affiliated with each other but there is nothing puzzling about this. Rich people in the West know each other, form a kind of club, do deals behind our backs that we don’t know about but which effect us, and so on.
- Al Queda is very unlikely to have told us about all of its aims. The group responsible is very likely to have aims that are local to the region although it also probably shares aims with other groups with whom it is loosely affiliated.
- We tend when things like this happen to think that this is primarily about us, by which I mean that we take it for granted that they have singled us out as a special target. This might not have been the case for either the September 11 attack or for the recent Bali bombing. There is a battle going on within Islam at the moment for the hearts and minds of believers between relatively liberal proponents of modernisation and those who violently oppose it. The latter group don’t like the rest of us but they don’t care much for the feelings of their moderate coreligionists either. To some extent we are pawns in that game. Odd though it may sound, radicalising the Islamic world could be the main game in all these attacks. Those of us who attack Islam in general play directly into the hands of these extremists. Let’s not do that.
One week on and a day of mourning.I,m so proud to be Australian. Peace, Mike
The day of mourning has just ended (Eastern Standard time). I think we have conducted ourselves with dignity and must continue to do so. The months to come will be hard and testing times for all of us, wherever we live. We must never lose sight of what we value and why we value it.
John
What REALLY happened, at Bali?
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymour/nuke/bali_nuke.htm
On 2002-10-20 20:58, brian_k wrote:
What REALLY happened, at Bali?http://homepage.ntlworld.com/steveseymour/nuke/bali_nuke.htm
Who on earth is responsible for this stuff? In Australia, many of us tend to distrust the mass media and there is always a lot of underground news being passed around. This take on events is not part of that. Whoever put this stuff together also seems strangely unaware of how this might fit into the broader pattern of events in the region, which would be of little interest to American Zionists. There have been quite a few bombings lately in the region. Ethno-nationalist violence is endemic to the region. Some Moslem parts of Indonesia are fighting a war to secede, as are Filipino Moslems. In other parts of Indonesia, Christian and Moslem groups have been involved in sporadic sectarian violence. Chinese groups in Java are periodically subjected to violence and looting. Iryan Jaya is fighting for independence from Indonesia and Dyaks (in Borneo) has recently attacked other non-indigenous groups settled there. There is also great resentment in Indonesia towards Australia for its role in gaining independence for East Timor. What any of this has to do with American Zionists is a complete mystery to me, yet it is against this backdrop that the bombing in Bali took place.
On a more cheerful note, the Irish and Australian football teams played out a 42 each draw before over 71,000 people at Croke Park in Dublin. The crowd was a record for any international football match in Ireland, regardless of code. Australia narrowly won the series on aggregate. Some of the victims of the Bali bombing were Irish so there was a backdrop of sadness all around. These games are as much about cultural exchange as they are about winning and the spirit in the crowd was wonderful
Wombat, To you and all the other Aussies on the Boards… My most heartfelt condolences on the loss of your Australian Brothers and Sisters in Bali. This type of thing invokes many conflicting emotions. May God be with you all during this time.
Slan
-Paul
We all CAN live together, it has happened before. Come on, look at cavemen. Better, look at the jungles, savannahs, oceans, skies. Every other living being lives peacefully, fights only to protect from other beings, and fights fiercely during mating season. Other than that, nothing else fights among themselves - except humans. Who can think and have a quite advanced array of languages (which doesn’t help in getting messages across).
It all started with this bomb-laden guy who doesn’t want other people to step on a certain patch of soil. Come on, earth is one big piece of land. If I step here, i CAN be considered stepping on the land across the ocean. It’s all connected. (a bit too much, but getting the point across). It’s pretty much political. The way things are divided, like one can see in a map. So sad.
One reason why they can simply blow themselves up is that, in their own country, they lack development. Being brought up in a sense of falsehood. Let me say this, I am not a Muslim, but I will tell this: Islam is not a terror religion. It’s the people who misuse and misinterpret it. Look at the Arabians a long, long time ago - around the middle ages, were quite advanced, technologically, medicine, a few others. They fought wars yes, but all-out ones. Not these “I hide, and I bomb” things. It’s the mind.
If books and text are seen the same in all directions, how nice the world would be.
With that, I wish my blessings.
Wombat, Mike R, etc - I hope at Twickenham on 16/11 that both teams stand for a minute’s silence.