Question: Silkstone Alloy D vs Burke Al Pro

John brings up a good point: Those O-rings can be difficult to see, and I really would be a bit surprised if a whole batch got by Mike without the O-rings. Perhaps the person at the shop was mistaken?

On a side note, I prefer the way the O-rings are done on the Silkstone: A) They sit up higher so there’s less chance of metal to metal contact of the slide parts. And B) I much prefer having the O-rings exposed on the body setion where I can see and get at them, rather than having them inside where they’re difficult to see and even harder to get at should you need to replace or reseat one. But hey, that’s just me.

Having played Burke and Silkstone D whistles, I like them both, each has it’s own charms.

Loren

Loren

JSW:

You’re right. I thought the same thing…that what I was seeing was a small metal ledge, even with a magnifying glass. But after reading your post, and with a bit of prodding using a jeweler’s screwdriver, it’s definitely a clear 0-ring that obviously blends in with the surroundings extremely well. Thanks for your post. Shows how much we assume things…like o-rings are always black.?? I say “we” because the guys at Song of the Sea also thought the AlPros had no rings, and most of them play Burkes. That would lead me to think Michael has possibly used black rings in the past but has recently switched to clear? Who knows. No big deal, just thinking out loud. I’m sure SOS will be pleased they don’t have a bunch of ringless whistles afterall.

As for the original subject, I’m definitely returning this AlPro and think I’ll give the Brass Session Pro a try. Just personal preferences in tonal qualities and volume. From what I’ve heard, the session pros are exceptional whistles with a more traditional sound than the AlPros.

Thanks again for all your input.
DRC

On 2002-06-29 11:46, Feadan wrote:
Also in this light what do you know about Sindt manufacture? Are his headjoints made with as much “machine” help as Burkes?

Machining is a highly skilled hand process that happens to use machines (it’s hard to scrape away metal with your fingernails). It’s a craft that takes several years of apprenticeship to master. A good machinist will recreate copies of an original model withing tolerances of 1/1,000 inch. In whistle making, machining can only come after engineering and design are complete. Mike Burke obviously handled this phase of the work - that’s why his name is on the whistle. A highly skilled someone else may do the machining, but he or she in all likelihood doesn’t even play the whistle. I’d still call it a hand made Mike Burke whistle, even if it took more than Mike’s two hands to make it.

John Sindt has a day job - he is a machinist. I don’t think he has an apprentice, employee or assistant in whistle making. His charming wife, Ann, seems to handle the phone calls and such, but otherwise, I believe John does everything from design to machining to final voicing.

Jim,

Doesn’t CNC stand for “Computer Numeric Controlled”? Mike’s Whistles are CNC machined, I was lead to believe that this meant all the specs are input into a computer which then controls the lathe, and millwork etc…no significant hand work there, except for typing the numbers into the computer. Or am I mistaken regarding how CNC machining is done?

Loren

On 2002-06-30 21:51, Loren wrote:
Jim,

Doesn’t CNC stand for “Computer Numeric Controlled”? Mike’s Whistles are CNC machined, I was lead to believe that this meant all the specs are input into a computer which then controls the lathe, and millwork etc…no significant hand work there, except for typing the numbers into the computer. Or am I mistaken regarding how CNC machining is done?

Loren

Ah, Loren, you beat me to it. :slight_smile:

-David

If Mike is using CNC rather than “plain old” machining then it’s even closer to “hand-made” since he’s the one that came up with the CAD files or whatever that result in the CNC machined whistle (it doesn’t take an additional person with machining experience to create the whistle, just a “smart” machine). It may be “computer numeric controlled”, but it’s probably Mike’s numbers and Mike’s control.

I’d rather have a mostly CNC’d whistle anyway because it reduces the differences from one whistle to another. If you play one machined whistle and like it, the rest are probably very similar. It may take a lot of R&D to begin with, but once you’ve got a winner you should be able to reproduce it without much effort.

:slight_smile:

-Brett

Brett,

I mostly agree with you about the merits of Mike’s method: It does allow him to produce incredibly consistent whistles, and reasonably priced too. However, I see them as anything but hand made: Wooden flutes, turned by a craftsman’s hand on a lathe are hand made. Generations with their injection molded heads and machine made cookie cutter bodies are not.

Glenn Schultz uses his hands to control the metal lathe he turns his bodies on, he files the tone blade by hand - Glenn is a craftsman handmaking whistles.

Michael Burke does some math, punches the numbers into a computer, has employess assemble the parts, and then gives the finished product a final check - Mike is not an artisian hand crafting instruments, he is an engineer turning out whistles much the same way Personal Computers or Automobiles are made, and we don’t consider those items to be hand made.

I’ve got nothing against Mike’s methods, and I think he makes some great products at good prices - I just don’t see how anyone can compare what he does to the work of people like Olwell, Overton, Goldie, Schultz, and the rest who shape the instruments and bring them to life with their own two hands. I mean define for me the point where something goes from being hand made to machine made?


Loren

On 2002-06-30 21:51, Loren wrote:
Jim,

Doesn’t CNC stand for “Computer Numeric Controlled”? Mike’s Whistles are CNC machined, I was lead to believe that this meant all the specs are input into a computer which then controls the lathe, and millwork etc…no significant hand work there, except for typing the numbers into the computer. Or am I mistaken regarding how CNC machining is done?

Loren

Okay, I missed the point of CNC. My experience with machinists dates back before they used computers.


Michael Burke does some math, punches the numbers into a computer, has employess assemble the parts, and then gives the finished product a final check - Mike is not an artisian hand crafting instruments, he is an engineer turning out whistles much the same way Personal Computers or Automobiles are made, and we don’t consider those items to be hand made.

Loren, remember that PC’s and cars are designed and engineered by teams of people, after much market research. Mike Burke designed these whistles personally, following his own ear and tastes. If he did market research, it was probably only anecdotal.

I do agree, though, that he has crossed from hand making to manufacturing whistles. Perhaps Mike should make some distinction, as Phil Hardy does with his lines, between manufactured and hand made whistles.

Hello everyone,
Wow, I am hesitant to jump into this discussion.
I try to keep a low profile, but my main concern is the person who started the thread getting what he wishes in a whistle. The whistle that he received obviously has a problem. I had a rather large consignment of whistles that were shipped to Song of the Sea, which took me several days to complete. I have been working between 9 and 12 hours a day at my regular job and was very tired
during the final check process. I do play each and every whistle before I sign it, but it is possible that something was missed on the transition response on this whistle. As to the tuning issue, I am curious to see what may have caused the problem that was described.
As Loren has explained, I use CNC (Computer Numeric Controlled Equipment to make the toneholes and most of the parts for the whistles I produce. This method is not the cheapest, but is the best way to produce very consistant whistles that have the potential to become great instruments. However, we spend a minimum of one hour of work on each and every instrument after the parts are made and I final voice and check them all. In this case I missed a problem in the jump to the top octave it sounds like. This is a voicing problem that can be fixed very easily. I am very sorry that this happens, but occasionally, because the most difficult and critical work is done by hand, not machines, we make mistakes. I have an apprentice that helps me tune and voice whistles. He is a fine craftsman who is a fine musician as well. His fine work allows me to concentrate on doing the very final checks and voicing adjusments, and therefore put out a very large number of whistles each year that we feel are the best we can make.
Getting back to tuning. It is not possible for one of my whistles to have a different tuning than another unless there was a problem with the machine that makes it, or the operator. We have had problems on rare occasions when the bores are loaded backwards, but that is pretty obvious. The choice of tuning intonement is a challenging question for a maker in the music.
I have struggled to satisfy as many people as I can with this. In Irish piping, for example, the tuning is a just intoned scale. This scale will have cause the tuning of the E note to be 4 cents sharp, the F# about 12 cents flat,
the G about 2 cents flat, the A two cents sharp, the B about 12 cents flat, and the C# about 14 cents flat. It also makes the Cnatural about 12-14 cents sharp. These comparisons are to what is called an equally tempered scale. The equally tempered scale actually would be a disaster for the bagpipes, because the notes would clash horribly with the drones. This scale is developed by starting with a particular note, for example, the note D we have as the lowest note on our
most common whistle. This note is approximately 587.2Hz, or 293.6Hz for the low
D. The scale we use increments by a factor of approximately 1.059 times the previous note for each half step to make up the equally tempered scale. This number is actually the twelvth root of the number 2 for those who like numbers. This scale is a compromise, as are all the scales that have been developed, and they are legion. There are people on this
forum who know far more about this than I do.
The point is that, depending on what you are use to listening to, you may perceive an interval to be short or long, though the Irish Piper will tell you that the Just scale is the onely one they will accept.
I have tried to make the F# on my whistles a tiny bit flat compared to the equally tempered scale that a tuner would indicate, and the other notes have been moved very slightly to that direction as well. The notes on a whistle are very flexible, however, and they can be easily blown on to play in perfect pitch, or overblown to make them play out of tune. I have played instruments made by most of the fine makers that I know, and all of them can be played out of tune or in tune, depending on
how they are blown. I have checked the tuning on the D Al Pro as well as all my whistles with some of the finest musicians in Irish Music as well as a host of studio musicians who play in all the kinds of music that whistles are played and recorded. Recording engineers love them because they say they are spot on tuning in all the many recordings that are made. This does not mean that a customer may not like the particular tuning however, nor does it mean that I am not willing to change the intonement to fit the needs of any and all of my customers. There is sometimes not a right or wrong answer to this question. My desire is to achieve perfect tuning, and nothing less. If your Burke whistle is not playing in tune, then I can make it play in tune for you, if I understand how you play it, and I can adjust the intonation to your ear, or type of music.
The debate over whether machine made parts or hand made parts are better can go on forever.
No matter how the parts are made, the whistle is only as good as the guy that voiced it on the day it was made and shipped. I think that
on this day, this one whistle had a problem, because I made a mistake. I feel bad about that and will do whatever is needed to fix it.
On the matter of the O’rings. It is very difficult to see a Polyurethane O’Ring in the slide, but with a small flashlight and a pointed object you can see them. I haven’t heard of any missing O’rings, and would be very surprised if there were any, but I will call Patty at Song of the Sea in the morning.
Patty and Anne and Eddie are wonderful people who really care about quality and their customers. That is why I sell to them. If you have a problem, however, no matter whether you got it from them or directly from me, please let me know. I apologize for being slow to answer letters lately. I try to keep up, but sometimes am slow because of my work load.
I stand behind my work, so even if you buy it used from another person, I will fix it for you and make sure you are satisfied with it.
I apologize also if this sounds too much like
self promotion. I try to avoid that, and anything that would make people feel uncomfortable about expressing their honest opinions. I hope this helps a little to explain some of the questions. Please contact me personally with any questions and problems.
I learn from complaints too,so please write and give me your ideas. I read this forum almost every day because I care and want to send you the finest instruments that we can make.
Thank all of you for your kindness and patience.

All the best
Mike

Posted by Dale at the request of Song of the Sea:


Song of the Sea sold a customer a Michael Burke Aluminum Pro Soprano D
whistle recently. The customer posted a message to the newsgroup saying
that it did not have an O-ring. However, on further inspection, he did find
the clear O-ring inside the whistle. He said he did not like some features
about this whistle, and we offered to take it back for replacement, refund,
or to send to Michael Burke. We selected the particular whistle for him
from 10 whistles that we have on hand, but he did not happen to like the
sound of one of the notes. When we receive it back, we will test that note
against an electronic tuner, to see if there is any problem with this whistle.
Michael Burke stands behind his whistles, and offered to replace this one
if there is any defect.
Sincerely,
Anne Damm

Song of the Sea is a full-service folk music store and resource,
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