http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=905391960
Looks interesting, even if you just frame them for a wall in the music room.
Check out the chanter pages. No actual measurements. They’d be best hanging on the wall.
Dionys
Yeah, on page eight. Measurments with hole sizes.
http://tisd.net/~usaserv/lilistjean/pipes8.html
I remember seeing a treasure map on the placemats in a fancy nautical theme restaruant. If I could only find that island… I’m sure the treasure is there.
For fifty bucks they make good conversation.
For $50, if they’re on decent paper, they’d be fun to frame and post around the house.
Dionys
these plans look remarkably like extracts / copies of the book by Wilbert Garvin published by NPU in late '70s or early '80s, might be cheaper to simply get a copy if this.
Emer,
I see it’s your first posting to the C&F board… welcome aboard!
Thanks for the lead to the Wilbert Garvin book. NPU has it listed at 33EURO.
http://www.pipers.ie/shop/detail.lasso?SKU=056
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The diagram IS from Wilberts book page 3,looks like Wilbert has been plagiarised.The item has been withdrawn from auction(obviously got wind of our interest)anyone know who Lili St Jean of Houston is?I will let Wilbert know that his book has been cut up and is being used commercially in the states.
Slan go foill
Liam
[ This Message was edited by: uilliam on 2002-09-09 13:23 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Uilliam on 2002-09-09 13:24 ]
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Amazon.com carries Wilbert Garvin’s “The Irish Bagpipes - Their Construction and Maintenance”. Although they’re apparently out of new one’s, (I got my copy there), they have a used 1988 edition listed for $12.00!
That’s a good price for the book if you want it. It’s a nice book for a sort of general overview of the pipes. Honestly (imho) not particularly useful for pipe-making.
To find the E-Bay person, go to the auction and then write E-Bay concerning their ID and offer of stolen, copyrighted material. They will eliminate their ID and if you contact the right people might tell you who it is so that the owner can go after them for copyright infringement.
It’s pretty disgusting to see someone stealing other peoples’ work in the UP community. I’m all for the free sharing of information (or low-cost sharing), but once someone puts out a work in book (or web) form, peoples rights should be respected.
Dionys
In defence of my friend Wilbert his book is a fine piece of work printed at a time when there was nothing else available.As for not being useful or not being able to make pipes from them then that is pure rubbish.Actually it is arrogant rubbish and harmful to any potential buyers.There is a wealth of info contained therein and as a guide to a new pipemaker or for the better knowledge of the instrument you are playing(or not)as the case may be it is excellent value for money.I have used it as a reference manual and have not been dissapointed.{ps.Wilberts book contains all the measurements including hole diameters etc that anyone who wants to have a go can use.}
[ This Message was edited by: uilliam on 2002-09-10 07:17 ]
In fact, I bought the copy that Amazon had listed and feel like I got a bargain at around $13.00US. I can’t wait to get my hands on it.
While we are on the subject, and me being a rookie at all of this, is there a problem with Alan Ginsburg’s plans? I ordered them several years ago, and they look pretty detailed to me. Can any of you veteran’s point out the problems, if any, and save me some grief?
I guess I must have a different copy of his book. The only bore measurements in my copy are at the upper throat and bell and as we all know (thanks to David Daye’s and many other people’s measurements), bores are not a straight taper. One could make a set of UP from his directions, but they would only serve as a very basic guide. One would be better off making a set based on a set they have access to for making their own measurements.
I didn’t say they weren’t useful. I said they weren’t particularly useful. It’s a subtle degree. I think it is an excellent book to own if you’re interested in the pipes and their construction. As a construction manual, I am certain it was at the head of its class in 1978. Considering how few instrument making books are out there and are well made, it might still be way up there in terms of instrument making, especially with regards to Uilleann Pipes. It is an excellent, very basic book on the construction of Uilleann Pipes.
At $12, it is an excellent value for the money. At E33, I’d probably say the same. It doesn’t, however, contain all the measurements you claim, unless you’re going to build a chanter with a straight-taper bore. Granted the stepped-taper bore is harder to achieve.
As for it being arrogant rubbish, I disagree. It’s an opinion. Everyone knows to take someone’s opinion with a grain of salt and everyone knows people have differing opinions. Frankly I learned more about the actual technical aspects of pipe-building from David Daye’s site, the Amateur Bagpipes Yahoo group and through contact with various pipemakers. If these sources, in addition to the rest of the resources available on the net didn’t exist I would certainly point people towards Wilbert’s book as the very first resource they should have in their posession.
As it is, though, if someone’s reading messages here I would suggest they take advantage of the low cost information available on the net. If they have money available, then by all means purchase Wilbert’s book.
Dionys
Dionys the posting wasn’t particularly aimed at you but as you’ve come up for it…How many measurements would you like?The chanter page 17 has sufficient,YOU HAVE TO MAKE YOUR OWN REAMERS and we are not talking rocket science here.A tapered reamer from 5.0mm at throat to13mm at bottom over a length of 362.omm what other measurements do you need ?We are talking CRITICAL measurements here not the minutae of mm x mm.Some very fine and well respected pipers and I mean VERY fine who I know personally have praised this seminal book over the years.And I do think it an arrogance for people with probably a lot less,
shall we say, time in, to pontificate too much on a fellow piper who has devoted his life to the craft.
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Kevins contribution sums up what I was saying.Trashing the book in his first sentence by saying it is “absolutely impossible to make a functioning set” from it then going on to saying what a nice guy he is.The measurements are CRITICAL measurements and are perfectly workable the bore length should be easy enough to work out its actually written down for you 362mm you make a tapered reamer to accommodate and get on with it.Do I detect a whiff of pipemakers mysticsm here?There is no big deal to reaming out a bore although the way some folks go on they would like you to think there is.Kevin then slags me for defending the book and goes on to say the “book stands in its own defense” make your mind up pal.I stand by the book and I will make my own mind up as to what I will and will not defend if its all the same with Kevin.By the way where did Kevin get the idea that the book was only intended as an introduction to the tools and techniques used in the construction of a set.That is not what Na Piobaire Uilleann think.Nor indeed do I suspect Wilbert either.
[ This Message was edited by: Uilliam on 2002-09-10 19:07 ]
It’s not pipemakers mysticsm. You just can’t simply taper a reamer (or bore as the case may be) from 5mm to 13.0mm over 362mm minus an unspecified amount for the throat and reed seat and expect to come up with a chanter that works well with the finger hole diameters listed. Go look at a plot of chanter measurements on David Daye’s page. He deals with an entire section regarding the fact that the bore of most older instruments are not a straight taper, but instead are a stepped taper. Trevor Robinson also deals with this in “The Amateur Wind Instrument Maker.”
While a straight tapered bore may work for some instruments, Wilbert’s measurements are not exact enough to tell you what the taper rate should be. If there had been an exact measurement from the base of the reed seat to the end of the bell, it would be possible to come up with the correct taper. In addition he doesn’t deal in detail with making borers, reamers or shell augers. Granted this is information that would take a lot of time to deal with, but it is also imperative to doing a good job of making your chanter (and set).
All in all, it is an excellent, BASIC book on the construction of Uilleann Pipes. It is lacking in critical measurements. It is great for an overview and partial x-ray view of your set of pipes. It is probably the best book about building pipes from scratch, but that is by its virtue of being the ONLY book devoted to that subject (Though I look forward to G. Wooff’s book regarding that).
I agree. There is no big deal to reaming out a bore, just like there is no big deal to drilling out a hole. There is, however, a big deal to reaming out a bore to the exact specifications you desire. That is, of course, assuming you have specifications to follow other than a general guess at what the taper is from a book that does not have the specificities written down.
Kevin got the idea that the book is intended as an introduction to the tools and techniques because the book only briefly mentions the tools used and the methods used in applying the tools. Technique is hardly dealt with at all. Books that deal with actual instrument construction take pages to deal with the actual construction of a reamer (and the various kinds), shell augers and various D-bit drills. Most books also deal with wood choices, especially their pluses and minuses. There are a lot of things this book lacks, which lead me to agree that it is an excellent introduction to the tools and techniques. As a maintenance manual it is among the best I’ve seen, though Thomas Kannmacher’s books also have a great deal of information on maintenance.
Dionys
No one is saying it is a bad book. We are just making sure that people who are looking to purchase it do not think it is some be-all-end-all of Uilleann Pipes construction books. I have to be honest. I like the book. I find it useful. When I bought it, having already gone over some basics of UP construction on the net and through correspondance, I was disappointed. I bought it new and don’t begrudge Wilbert his knowledge, his dedication and the time he spent on the book OR the money I spent on it. However I was sorely disappointed with the lack of details and in-depth discussion of pipemaking I expected to find.
As said before, though, everyone is offering an opinion. Everyone’s opinion, when backed up by basic observations, is valid as an opinion.
By all means, buy the book. Decide for yourself what you think regarding how useful it is. Or just borrow a copy, read through it and decide if it something you need in your library.
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That’s also assuming the printing reproduction accuracy is spot-on and that minor errors don’t make a difference (see Robinson, p. 17, Benade’s quotation). Personally, I am of the opinion that minor modifications to sections of the bore in amounts around 0.1mm can make a great difference.
Keep in mind, also, that the reed-making information contained in that book is also very basic (though spot on, if I remember correctly), offering no trouble-shooting help or alternate methods. We all know what transformations a great (or good) reed can perform upon a chanter that had a borderline reed.
What it comes down to is that different people disagree. One possible solution is to hand those plans to someone who is an excellent woodworker and see what the chanter he makes exactly from those specifications sounds like. It’d be a fun experiment.
Dionys