I have been reading a bunch of threads about mixed material flutes. There was, for example, Henke’s M&E flute with wood headjoint and polymer body. But there was also Jessie’s mixing of an Olwell poly headjoint with a wood body. She said that combo was virtually indistinguishable from an all-wood Olwell.
In my brief experience with flute, moisture buildup is mostly a problem in the wood headjoint. I commonly swab the headjoint only and the sound crisps back up again. Would a poly headjoint + wood body be the best combo for sound and moisture resistance?
The reason I got the wooden head for my M&E is to see if there was a significant difference in sound. As it has been more or less scientifically proved that most of the sound differences sits in the head, at least when it comes to material, the headjoint seems like the most logical part to switch out. Too bad it’s also one of the parts most likely to crack…
It’s been my experience that oiling a wooden flute with a drying oil (i.e. cold-pressed linseed oil or commercial bore oil), in addition to the benefit of helping to prevent cracking, also helps prevent the moisture buildup in the head that can hurt the tone and response of the instrument.
Moisture buildup is also a problem in polymer flutes, in my experience at least–that experience including a delrin Seery, an original model M&E, and a M&E “R&R”.
I do think these are fine polymer flutes and there is a definite place for them alongside their wooden brothers: they do not need to be swabbed out after every play, they do not need oiling, they are washable, and they can be left assembled indefinitely without damaging the tenons, which you cannot do with a wooden flute. Also, excluding major trauma such as being run over by a vehicle, they will not ever crack.
hm… this moisture buildup makes me wonder.
in my older type dixon poly (over 5 years old) there was a lot of buildup and it was finished differently than my new dixon poly this year june, which does almost not suffer buildup…I have more buildup in the wooden flutes than in my dixon poly… curious eh?
Thanks Berti! So, maybe it’s a good idea to get a wood flute with a poly headjoint as well. Not many makers offer this option though.
However, I must say that after transitioning to a standard grip (from a piper’s grip) and using training my embouchure using the condensation pattern, moisture seems to take longer to build up on my CB flute to the point I have to dry it out.
When you refer to scientific results the common practice is to include your references.
Also, in science, things can be proved to a certain degree, to a certain extent, under certain assumptions
or under specific conditions etc, but never “more or less”. Then it’s just not science anymore.
I do think you are right in one sense Henke, replacing the head of a flute will have a bigger effect on the
sound than replacing the body. But my guess is that this has more to do with changes of the embouchure,
head joint bore profile, the size of the cavity above the embouchure, than different acoustic properties of the material.
From a strictly physical point of view I have a hard time to see that the minor differences in acoustic
properties of different wall materials can effect the sound at all, as these differences are negligible
compared to the properties of the vibrating air column.
Maybe the difference in sound is related to the player’s preferences or there are other factors such as
moister build up, absorption, adsorption and adhesion that will effect the vibrations of the air column.
I don’t have an answer but I do think this is a very interesting subject.
So maybe “scientifically” was a bad word, I’ll just blaim the fact that English is not my first language
I was refering to that material test for flutes that has been discussed here many times in the past where they had a flute head and several flutists played it for an audience with different bodies in all kinds of materials that were otherwise identical in size and such. Apperently the panel could not tell any difference in sound and neighter could the flutists. I don’t know if one should call this test accurate though. Most flutist would say that different materials for the headjoint does make a difference in sound but it seems that the material for the body makes a lot less difference.
I guessed that you were referring to the study made by John W. Coltman (1971) discussed in the “Flute Myth” thread. And don’t get me wrong I do believe that you do experience some real differences playing your M&E with Poly or the new wooden head. In my opinion the effect of the wall material is a less likely explanation of this difference in sound. You don’t need to agree on this and you have the right to have your own opinion. I felt an urge to comment your remarks as it is not that uncommon that people when thay are convinced themselves of a certain matter have a tendency to refer to science with very vague references and in the worst cases quite different conclusions. This makes it very hard for anyone with a different opinion to carry on the discussion and instead of leading up to something fruitful for all parts participating it turns into a dead end. The way I interpreted your remarks
was that “if it is proved that the material of the body has no effect to the sound then it’s clear that it is the material of the head that makes the difference”. John W. Coltman’s article “Effect of material on flute tone quality” (Journal of the Acoustical Society of America, 49, 2, part 2, pp520-523, 1971) is available on line and he makes no such conclusions. Also, if you check out the Coltman archives this is a quick read “Material used in flute construction”, Woodwind World, 12(1):20-21 (February 1973). And don’t miss Nelson’s comprehensive reply on the “Flute Myth” thread.
I have a “Gael Westport” student flute which has an ABS headjoint and blackwood body (readily available from The Music Room, £149).
I also have all-wooden flutes, and an M&E. I can honestly say I’ve noticed no difference in the rate of moisture buildup. But in the case of the M&E and the Westport (which are both fully-lined headjoints), the moisture tends to run out into the body quicker than on the wooden flutes, where condensation tends to bead on the oiled wood (unlined headjoints) before being blown down the pipe.
Again, in the M&E, moisture tends to flow more freely out the pipe than the wooden flutes, in my experience anyway.
But all of them, regardless of material, still really tick me off when the condensation sprays out the tones holes making my fingers slip. That really bugs me.
Marcus… I already appologized my bad choice of words. For me there is a pretty big difference in sound from different materials in the headjoint. The biggest reason for this is probably the very simple fact that different materials have a different density, wood is more porous than polymer, and I experience a clearer tone from polymer, a more grainy tone from wood. Describing different sounds is difficult but there is a difference, this seems obvious to me, pretty closely related to a little thing called common sense. Your nagging about me not being correct enough in my way of contributing to the thread when I had already taken it back is just tiresome and doesn’t do you credit.
Henke, I’m sorry if my reply came across rather blunt, or offended you in any way. That was never the intention. This is a very difficult topic and it could be hard enough to find agreement to the definition of tone quality, finding and isolating the properties that affects the tone quality might even be impossible. I still find this very interesting and I would like to know more. It has nothing to do about nagging, I fully understand your remarks and accepted your clarification. But in every reply above you made some sort of a claim, even in your last post you stated that:
I can think of a number of reasons why different flute heads can produce different sounds, the density difference of different woods is not one of them. The density factor between the wood wall material and the vibrating air column is ~ 1000. The density difference between any common flute wood and PVC is in the order of 0.7 [kg/m3] or less. I can’t see how this could have any effect at all. As I stated before, I do believe that your different heads have different sound characteristics, the question is why. You have the opportunity to test and find out as you have two heads from different materials, made for the same body, by the same maker, I don’t. As your flute is handmade I would guess that much of the difference can be explained by differences in geometry, bore volume and embouchure, far more so than effects of the wall material.
Gary and Bertie66 made some very interesting observations regarding moisture and condensation. What are the effects of thermal conductivity of different materials? Can they be big enough to affect moisture buildup and condensation? If one worries about the density differences between different wall materials, what about the density variation of the air column due to differences in temperature, humidity, or pressure?
I’m sorry that you think my replies are tiresome Henke, part of the purpose behind posting a subject on a discussion board is to expect replies. It’s not much of a discussion other wise. If you feel you have been picked on, I have been nagging you or any thing similar, please contact me by PM or mail so we can resolve the matter privately in Swedish. It was never my intention.
If my posts doesn’t do me credit is nothing I’m concerned about. I don’t post to collect credits or points. I post, or reply to posts, because I’m interested in what’s being discussed or to participate in OT: threads because I think they are fun and witty (even though no one else understands my humor).
No offence taken Marcus, let’s just leave the subject ok? If you want to go on with it I’ll still reply of course but I don’t really feel like I’m in the mood for this kind of discussion.
To reply to the much more relevant discussion on sound characteristics I still am of the opinion that material matters, much of my view on this comes from the opinions of others whom I respect and trust. You are right to believe that my flute is hand made and it does have slight differences in the embouchure cut and such, which I am sure contributes to the different sound characteristics. The wooden head does have (what I would think is) a more Pratten like cut, a slightly wider embouchure hole with the blow edge being more straight, like a rounded rectangle, were the polymer head has a rounder hole. There is a big difference between the two heads and part of it surely comes from the slightly different cuts, I get a little more volume from the wooden head and the tone is somewhat dry compaired to the polymer head. The polymer head has in some ways a sweeter tone and it is slightly deeper and fuller. I think the wooden head might have a bit more of the Pratten quality to it, strong, reedy and dry, and the polymer head is in that regard more like I would imagine the R&R style flute to be in comparance, full, sweet and resonant. However, the tone is warmer in the wooden head as well and it has a bit of grainyness to it, the polymer is slightly more metal like, more direct, probably with less overtones. I imagine some of these differences comes from the fact that the polymer head is lined with metal, and some of the differences comes from the wall material, although I already know that you’ll dissagree I’m not sure of this, these are just guesses and theories from my part. Nevertheless, I’d have to say that I’m pretty convinced that there is a difference in the sound characteristics of the different materials.
Other people have said, after trying out several different flutes, (for example) say 5 Blackwood flutes, a couple of Boxwood ones and a few Mopanes, that even if the flutes were different, one Blackwood not really resembling another, they still found common characteristics that all the Blackwood flutes shared and they were very different from that of Boxwood. I know some people here have similar experience, and I’d be happy if some of our more experienced fluters would share.
I’m not sure of this, these are just guesses and theories from my part. Nevertheless, I’d have to say that I’m pretty convinced that there is a difference in the sound characteristics of the different materials.