Cocobolo vs. Polymer (an update on the M&E)

Irish Flute
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Okay fellows. I though I’d do an update on my 5 lefty keyed M&E Rudall and Rose. Some of you might remember that I played a M&E R&R polymer, unkeyed for almost 2 years, then I sent it back to Michael to get it keyed with home made lefty keys. Acctually I ended up with a brand new flute as he had one ready with 5 keys that the original purchaser couldn’t pay for, so I just sent mine back. I also had another great idea, to get a new headjoint for the flute at the same time, a headjoint in wood to see if there is really a difference. I decided to ask Michael to do it partially unlined aswell, Michael agreed to do it, so I am now in the possesion of the only partially lined M&E headjoint in the world, if he hasn’t done any more of them after he made mine. He should cause mine is great, but we’ll come to that later. With two headjoints and the body in a hardcase the flute arived here.

Here are two pics (smaller than the ones in the original thread which I haven’t had the time to dig up yet, it’s several pages back.)

Not the best pics but they should give you an idea of how the flute looks. It’s not very elegant, but it’s certainly beautiful by my standards.

I have also recorded two soundclips of the flute with both heads. They are quite lousy, warning for some squeeks. I know the rythm isn’t spot on here, otherwise I’d be happy to recieve some feedback. However, the main reason for these clips is to display the difference between the two heads and not to display my playing.

First out is George White’s Favourite (influenced by the playing of Kevin Crawford), you’ll hear the cocobolo head first and then the polymer head:
http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/Audio/02-05/GeorgeWhitesFavorite-HenrikJ.mp3

Next up is Rolling in the Rye Grass. What I’ve done here is that I played two times trough on each head, the first time at moderate volume, maybe a bit on the softer side and the second on I try to push the flute as loud as it can go (warning for terrible squeeks here, I didn’t realise this until now but this was probably a bit louder than my mic could handel so close up). Same order, first cocobolo, then polymer.
http://www.tinwhistletunes.com/clipssnip/Audio/02-05/RollingintheRyeGrass-HenrikJohansson.mp3

As you can hear, there is a noteable difference in sound between the two, also the Cocobolo head can take more air and play louder. Wether this difference is due to slightly different embouchure cuts, unlined vs. lined or cocobolo vs. polymer is difficult to know. I’d say a little bit of each.

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Both heads sound pretty good to me…I like the tone you are getting, very clean.

There is some difference in the sound, the wood head seems brighter to my ears.

I sympathize with your technical difficulties on recording this comparison. Comparisons involving volume are a real pain…only someone who has actually gone through the process and done one will understand.

Thanks for posting this. Great sounding flute, and I enjoyed your playing.

Please post more.

–James

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Yeah, the wood does sound brighter. Nice playing.

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Hanke, good stuff ! I like the Cocobolo head better, but they both sound good.

more !!! :party:

eilam.

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Thanks for the inputs guys. Keep em coming, I could use some feedback on my playing aswell, altough that wasn’t the reason why I recorded this.

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I agree the Coco head is brighter I like the sound of it more.

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Hi Henke,
Sound clips sound great.
Are the head joints the same? Do you have a caliper that you can measure the depth of the chimney on the embouchure?
Would it be possible to see a picture of both Head joints together, maybe a close-up on the embouchure holes.
If the embouchure is different it would give a different tone.
Jon

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Nice tone on those flutes Henke. As for critiques/criticisms I have three suggestions.

Phrasing- Work on getting the solid phrasing down and think about your breathing spots on the tunes. If you managed to fix your breathing you’d fix most of your rthyhm problems. That’s where I hear your going amiss on your recordings.

Ornamentation- I’d get the tune down with proper phrasing before you go hog wild on the ornamentation. It sounds as though you’re trying to play crans? in some of those places and it seems as though your almost changing the structure of the tune forcing them in there. A good exercise is to try to play these tunes without ornamentation (if possible) so you become more comfortable with the tunes melody which will help you figure our where it is appropriate to put ornamentation and where it is not.

Listening… listen to the old players who have these two things down pat and it will help you.

Anyways, enough of that. Nice playing and good luck.

Jack

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poses some interesting quesitons,

like? why would the wood sound brighter/more volume capacity?
is the bore in the head different?
or is there something to do with the porosity of the material and sound being affected?
Does polymer have the same tensile strength than wood?
I’m thinking of getting a polymer myself to get started on embouchure work, i’m a poor student and i will be hard pressed to find a good wooden flute i can take propper care of for any time soon.
now there are some makers i have read about: do you know wich one makes better polymer versions?

TOny Dixon, M. Cronnolly, or Desi Seery?

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Jon, I don’t have a caliper here to measure the chimney depth. I could try and get a picture but it will probably take a few days minimum. I’ll see what I can do. The embouchure cut is slightly different.

And Jack, thanks for the input, I’ll take that into consideration.

Fantomas. There are three big differences between the headjoints. First the material, which I do think accounts for a bit of a difference in tone. Second is the embouchure cut which is slightly different, the Cocobolo head has a little wider and straighter blowing edge where the polymer is more round, again stand by for pics. Third is the fact that the polymer head is fully lined with metal and the metal lining in the Cocobolo head ends several inches away from the embouchure hole. It’s difficult to know what makes the most difference here. My guess would be that the diffierent embouchure cuts accounts for the difference in volume, the material would probably only affect the tone character and not the volume in this case. I think the bore size would be almost exactly the same in both heads.
I think you’d do a great choice in getting a polymer flute. I’d warmly recomend the M&E. M&E’s and Seery’s are more respected around here than Dixon’s. I think you’d be best of getting an M&E for your first flute, it’s a remarkable instrument which will serve you well forever and it’s probably a lot easier to learn on than the Seery.

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Jon makes nice flutes, and the flute would be custom to your needs and wants.

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Just chiming in on the recommendations end of things.

I have the same model flute Henke does, but without keys. I took it to a session on Sunday that had 4 other flute players in attendance (it was apparently a freakishly large turnout.) The M&E got sincere compliments from owners of an Olwell blackwood, a Murray, and an Abell Boehm flute on its tone and volume.

In terms of “appropriateness” for a beginner, you can’t go wrong with the M&E unless you decide not to be a fluter. Even for a totally rank newb like myself, it’s playable far into the second octave. I’ve had it all of 8 days, and while I am not yet consistent with it, I can play some tunes fairly decently.

The only downside to a polymer that I can see is that it’s heavy. No, it isn’t a top-of-the-line waiting list type of flute, but will you honestly be able to appreciate the difference at this stage?

I’ve heard very good things about the Seery as well. For a beginner, the conventional wisdom holds that the Seery has a steeper learning curve than an M&e, but will be very rewarding of your patience.

The CW on the Dixon holds that you should definitely go with the 3-piece tunable model.

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Nice playing Henke! :smiley:

As we discussed in the passed, the flutes you compare are acoustically quite different and the variation in sound quality (characteristics) is more likley to be related these differences than to the two different materials.


But I agree on one point, Michael makes some really nice flutes

/MarcusR

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The cocobolo definately sounds reedier.

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Thanks Marcus.
and yes, I rember us discussing that, maybe you also remeber that I didn’t agree with you :smiley:
Sure, I think the design of the flute accounts for a larger difference than what the material does, but I still believe that material makes a difference.

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Ahh, I think when it comes down to the tiny bits we actually agree with each other.

If the geometrical differences accounts for the larger differences in sound characteristics how can you distinguish
the contribution from wood compared to polymer? Also, if the poly head is fully lined why talk about characteristics
of poly vs wood?

I never said that materials can’t make a difference the question is why.
I can’t see how density can be a factor so if there is a difference it must be due to something else.
The two factors I can think of is variations in viscous drag and thermal conductivity.

The thermal conductivity would be a material parameter that one can’t do much about (electric heater/cooler?).
And I can’t say I understand how thermal differences affect the sound quality. The viscous drag would
relate to bore smoothness and could therefore induce differences for grainy woods. However the
making process, skill of the maker, tools used, bore preparation etc would have a bigger effect.
To complicate things even further one can add effects like
preferences of the maker, player and perception of the listener.
It will quickly become avery interesting but rather complex problem.

The Bottom line is:
In my opinion, if one could find out how these parameters relate to sound quality it would be a lot
easier to make a flute with desired characteristics out of polymer than out of wood.
The wood is just for looks, feeling and tradition, which accounts for quite a bit.

I might be the only one that thinks this way, but remember I’m also a geek and not a traditionalist.

/MarcusR

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Marcus, let me just say that I don’t think of polymer as a lesser material than wood. Yes, I do prefer wood, but I have always been a big proponent for playing polymer flutes. I like the material and it has it’s benefits, I have recomended countless newbies that they should get an M&E made of polymer, and I love and play my own polymer flute daily.

I won’t try to get into the science of this, as you might remember I’m not very good at that, I play flutes, I don’t really need to know the science of them as long as it doesn’t make me play better or I decide to become a maker of them. What I base my opinion that material makes a difference on is that there are certain characteristics that different flutes of the same wood share in common that has no other obvious explanation than the material. You can sense a similarity between two boxwood flutes that blackwood flutes does not have. Boxwood does sound more mellow and creamy than blackwood does, this is just an example.

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This is not a discussion about whats better or worse, as that is something subjective that can’t be agreed upon.
And regarding preferences, I would also chose a wooden flute over plastic but that has nothing to do
with the sound quality.
Just the feel, weight, look and smell of a nice wooden flute would make the choice easy
and Im sure it would also affect my playing.

I know that you are very generous with sharing your knowledge and experiences with the rest of us
as well as helping out new fluters with sound advice. I’m not criticizing you in any way Henke.

The thing I can’t grasp in this thread (nor the previous) is your references to “Wood vs Polymer”
I can’t see that you have compared the two materials in any way. Your Poly head is fully lined,
the only contribution from the wall material (if any) would be from the embrochure and chimney.
As the two embrochures are quite different (the wooden one was a rounded rectangle and the
poly head had a rounder hole, depth and angle?) I have a hard time to
believe that the differences in sound
is related to the wall material.

As for your boxwood/blackwood example, I have two questions.

A) Do you think that two similar boxwood flutes made by two different
makers have more common sound characteristics than a boxwood and
a blackwood flute by the same maker?

B) If you heard 10 randomly picked boxwood flutes and 10 randomly
picked blackwood flutes played behind a screen do you think you could
divide them up, based on sound quality?


My guess is, no and no

Cheers!

/MarcusR

Edit: fixed a typo

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So maybe it should say polymer/metal vs. wood or something. And don’t you think the embouchure and chimney accounts for a lot? I would guess it does.
The cuts are not that different, it’s not like McGee’s rounded rectangle and oval or anything, the difference is not that big.

And on the blackwood vs. Boxwood issue:

A) No, not the point. Again I think the design of the flute makes a larger difference, however I would say that a blackwood flute and a boxwood flute from the same would sound more different than a blackwood and another blackwood from the same maker.

B) Don’t know, I haven’t tried. If they were all the same model, I think I might have a chance, but you said randomly picked. Look above again, design accounts for the largest difference in my book. However, I think you’d be able to spot common characteristics shared by the flutes of the same wood after a little practice. It would also be essential that all flutes were played by the same fluter.

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I think it accounts for almost everything!
Ad the effect of differences in inside volume and especially the space above the embrochure hole and I think you have one probable explanation to the two different sound characteristics you experience.

/MarcusR