Polymer flutes are improving, it
seems from recent threads. I’ve got
a Dixon and I’m impressed with it.
I reckon there are more expensive
polymers that sound better still.
How do the best polymers compare
with a good blackwood flute?
Don’t mean to start a controversy,
but as these improve, is the gap
likely to be closed? Best
The M&E flutes and the Seery flute I have compare very well to the McGee RAF, although the McGee is louder and has a more “open” sound at a normal blowing pressure. All four flutes “top out” at about the same volume when driven.
Gimme a little while longer to let my Hammy get here, and I may have much more to say on this topic.
Best,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
[ This Message was edited by: peeplj on 2002-12-31 11:36 ]
Hi Jim,
Good question. I can’t answer it but I think both economics and conservation may play their parts in this issue. As these tropical woods become more rare (from what I understand Cocus is almost extinct) they will have to find new, more environmentally friendly replacements for the hardwoods that are in use now. That may be why we are seeing more of a push to make good polymer flutes now than say three years ago. I’ve read that Delrin is expensive but I don’t think it’s as expensive as Blackwood or Boxwood are and I think Delrin will go down in price as it is used more whereas the hardwoods will continue to go up as they are used more. Eventually I think we will see a point where alternative material flutes are much more popular than they are now. Of course a keyless Olwell in Cocus will be going for $10,000 at that point so how many of us would be able to realistically get one? Necessity is the mother of invention, when they need to make great flutes from other materials, they will.
JMHO, I’m no expert but it’s a guess based on economics and business in general.
-Jim
I have a delirn Olwell and a blackwood Olwell. The blackwood one is better. I looked at the finish on the inside of the delrin and it looks fine (no laziness there), and I tried the delrin head on the blackwood body and vice versa. The (silver-lined) delrin head on the blackwood body sounded as good as the all blackwood flute, and the (also silver-lined) blackwood head on the delrin body sounded the same as the all delrin flute, leading me to believe that it was the surface of the delrin in the body that made the difference. It is, of course, possible that playing around with the finish on the inside would alter the sound quality, but I am not going to do it. I do like the delrin one, it’s still an Olwell and sounds and plays better than most other makes of flute, but when comparing apples and apples, blackwood is better.
I also have a boxwood Olwell without a tuning slide that is my favorite of the three. It has the richest, easiest to achieve sound. Go figure. It makes me wonder about metal-lined tuning slides. For people who claim to love a woody sound, we seem bent on letting it be muted in order to have a slide. The tenon-socket tuning works fine on a good flute and I think I actually prefer the lack of a metal slide, and definitely the lack of a fully lined head.
~J
That’s kind of against the conventional wisdom on the whole thing, Jessie . . . not that the conventional wisdom is necessarily right.
If the blackwood body sounds the same with the delrin or the blackwood head, and it’s actually the body that matters, then Loren should probably have just gotten a delrin headjoint and saved himself the problems (with a cocus headjoint). Do you really think the bodies are what sounds different?
And you like the unlined boxwood head the best . . . which lends credence to the idea that the headjoint and the lining matter. I guess, based on the impressions that I have, I would find it hard to believe that the headjoints make so little difference with regard to the blackwood and delrin flutes, particularly given the variations in handcut embouchures.
Are these all Nicholsons? Can you put the boxwood headjoint onto the delrin or blackwood bodies, or vice-versa? That would be interesting, I think.
Stuart
On 2002-12-31 12:05, sturob wrote:
Do you really think the bodies are what sounds different?
Um, obviously, in this case. By the way, conventional wisdom used to think the world was flat.
the idea that the headjoint and the lining matter.
Well, if wood sounds different that metal, then yes, the headjoint and the lining matter.
I would find it hard to believe that the headjoints make so little difference with regard to the blackwood and delrin flutes, particularly given the variations in handcut embouchures.
Patrick Olwell is pretty good at duplicating his signature embouchure cut.
Are these all Nicholsons? Can you put the boxwood headjoint onto the delrin or blackwood bodies, or vice-versa?
Yes, yes.
Stuart, I have to say that I don’t know where you’re coming from here. You are a knowledgable guy and I don’t know why you can’t understand that any difference in the surface inside a flute will affect the sound that comes out of the flute.
I do believe that the headjoint is the heart of the flute, and that is why I did the comparison on the other bodies. I was surprised with the result, but I don’t agree that it goes against conventional wisdom. It was a controlled study. Patrick Olwell is pretty darn reliable.
~J
Polymer flutes ARE made of wood. Very very old wood that has given its life to become petroleum there might even be some dinosaurs in there! And you guys thought YOUR flutes were antique! 
Doc
On 2002-12-31 12:19, JessieK wrote:
Well, if wood sounds different that metal, then yes, the headjoint and the lining matter.
Hmm. I was just wanting reassurance that I understood you correctly; I didn’t mean to sound so stupid. I have heard people argue that lined headjoints all sound the same, relatively speaking, because of their bores. Your comparison of blackwood and polymer would seem to bear that out.
Patrick Olwell is pretty good at duplicating his signature embouchure cut.
That implies that the design is static. I’ve played enough Olwell Rudalls to know it’s not. Yours might be, but I don’t know that he sets out to cut exactly the same embouchure each time. Maybe he does.
I asked,
Are these all Nicholsons? Can you put the boxwood headjoint onto the delrin or blackwood bodies, or vice-versa?
Replied Jesse,
Yes, yes.
Again, I apologize for not communicating well, a problem I seem to be having today. I was really wondering about your opinion regarding the unlined, boxwood head on the boxwood, polymer, and blackwood bodies. Did you think the difference between the headjoints lined::unlined was more striking than box::blackwood::polymer body, for example?
It was a controlled study. Patrick Olwell is pretty darn reliable.
I’m not saying he’s not reliable, but there’s a reason handmade instruments demand a premium over factory-made ones. I don’t know what he’d say, but I would find it very hard to believe that his embouchures are so identical. Similar, yes, but the do differ, even moreso over time. The Olwell embouchure I’ve played from the early 1990s is quite different from my personal instrument, of late 2002 vintage.
I’m just curious to hear your opinions.
Stuart
(edited because I had tooooo many recursive quote/quote commands!)
[ This Message was edited by: sturob on 2002-12-31 17:05 ]
Oops, incorrect assumption on my part. The boxwood body doesn’t actually fit into the other heads because the boxwood tenon is a little bigger than the other heads’ sockets. With teflon tape, I could get the boxwood head to fit the other bodies, but I don’t feel like it now.
Anyway, I did the test with the two flutes (blackwood and delrin) because I was hoping to blame embouchure variation for the difference in tone, but as I explained, the bodies made more of a difference than the heads. Just reporting the facts, here, Stuart.
~Jessie
The great thing about the synthetic flutes is their durability. Wooden flutes are easily damaged and expensive to repair. I have many times seen musicians with fine wooden flutes who are so busy protecting them that they are missing out on an awful lot of fun. Particularly when they have to leave when the session is geting lively and fun.
A good session should be a wild orgy of music drinking and dancing. Taking an 8-key rudall to one of those is not a ery smart idea.
I think Nick makes an excellent point.
I own a pretty darn good (according to Jessie) blackwood flute. I also have an olwell bamboo and a good Dixon polymer.
There is no question that the wooden flute and bamboo flutes have a more open and rich tone and are a more “vibrant” experience to play.
However, I live in the dessert of Southern Idaho and I worry a lot about climatic effects on my wooden instruments. I also have a very unpredictable schedule (I’m a vet). There’s nothing worse than having to pull a calf right in the middle of your aire!
As a result I really appreciate the instant access of a polymer instrument. No oiling, no swabbing, heck I don’t even take it apart! It’s always there ready to play and I never have to worry about what the relative humidity is today. The thing’s darn-near indestructible (also nice when you have 13 children!).
All of the above worries and fussing take a lot of the joy of the music from me so I am getting a keyed polymer Rudall Rose from Michael Cronnolly (M&E). It should be here in a week or so.
Will it sound as good as a wooden flute?..probably not quite, we’ll see.
Will it sound almost as good?
Very probably and I’ll never have to give it a moments fussing. That’s worth a lot to me. It’s fret-free music for me…more fun that way. 
It will be interesting to see how you like the flute when you get it ~ it sounds like it will be the perfect flute to fit your life-style, and who could argue with that?
Happy New Year to all!
Mary
–quote–
All of the above worries and fussing take a lot of the joy of the music from me so I am getting a keyed polymer Rudall Rose from Michael Cronnolly (M&E). It should be here in a week or so.
Will it sound as good as a wooden flute?..probably not quite, we’ll see.
Will it sound almost as good? Very probably and I’ll never have to give it a moments fussing. That’s worth a lot to me. It’s fret-free music
–endquote–
I think those are excellent reasons, and it sounds like you’ve got your head on straight.
I wish I could see that keyed R&R!!! That should be a pretty awesome flute, polymer or not. How many / which keys?
I think one of the big attractions of polymer is zero care / zero worry / low investment.
Best wishes, and good luck with that flute!!!
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
I ordered a six-key. I’m pretty psyched. I’ll post some pictures and a clip when it comes.
I’ll not likely ever part with my keyless blackwood but I’m not willing to be a slave to more than one of them.
Doc
I just have to jump in here to say that, contrary to the past few posts, blackwood is extremely durable and – while common sense is a must – most wooden flutes will last through a session as well as any other flute. Not that I’m playing in Arizona, but… How many fiddle players are playing plastic/polymer instruments to better handle the “fun?”
An instrument is, and should be, a thing of beauty and a pleasure to play. I have no real problem with Delrin – I may go for a knock-around polymer flute, too, if I end up gigging or playing in too varied a climate. But in the meantime, it seems to me that the quality of the instrument is most important, as is my enjoyment from playing it. Personally, I have never played a polymer that comes close in feel (and that’s what makes me want to keep playing) to a good wooden flute, not to mention beauty or craft.
Now, in a bar fight, give me a Seery any day…
Patrick, you have 13 children?!?!?
yes,
9 adopted and 4 home-made 
They are the greatest kids in the world… several decent whistlers and a budding flute player or two. Everybody over six is also a fiddler.
Doc
Well, just to keep things interesting, how about an $8000 professional Boehm-system polymer flute with magnetic springs and o-ring pads?
Best wishes to all,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
Wow, Patrick. That is impressive.
I ask myself what it would happen if Patrick olwell or any top maker made a polymer flute. Probably the flute would be as good as the one made of wood.
Anyway, I’m sure the most of us prefer a wooden flute, although the design is much more important that material in flute contruction probably.
S. Moro.
[ This Message was edited by: smoro on 2003-01-02 05:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: smoro on 2003-01-02 05:11 ]