I’m wondering if anyone would like to share their experience with keyed polymer flutes (I know M&E makes one. Do Dixon or Seery?).
Seems like it might be nice to have a cheaper keyed flute to see if it’s useful/desireable before shelling out a ton of dough and waiting for years.
Any thoughts?
Thanks,
Doc
If you’ve got it, flaut it.
[ This Message was edited by: Doc Jones on 2002-11-05 16:58 ]
Hi Doc,
lets see now, An Olwell bamboo in F, A Dixon polymer in D and a keyless Copley ordered. And now a keyed polymer!!
I never knew that Fort Knox was in Southern Idaho 
Cheers, Mac
P.S. I’ve still got 7 months to wait for my Ormiston.
Doc,
IMO buying one of the currently available keyed polymer flutes is a waste of money: Having now played both the standard M&E and Seery Polymer flutes I have to say that the tone and playability of these flutes are clearly inferior to a really good woodenflute, and the resale value of keyed polymer flutes doesn’t match that of the good wooden variety.
Get a Copley, or Hammy, or Healy, or McGee, or Hoza, or…well you get the idea, and forget about a keyed Polymer - in the end you’ll want a good wooden flute before long, and so you’ll up buying something else eventually anyway.
No doubt I’ve given James and Michael E. something to disagree with in this post, but that’s the way I see it anyway.
By the way, when I asked, back a couple of years ago, the wait for a keyed Seery or Keyed M&E was a number of months, so you may not even be able to get one quicker than say a Copley or Healy.
Loren
While I agree with Loren that Seery flutes and M&E flutes are not as good as flutes made by many of the makers of high end wood flutes, I think it has more to do with the care taken in the production than with the material. Tom Doorley (Danu) plays a keyed Seery flute with tape all over it and he sounds quite good. I do think that Desi Seery is capable of making an adequate flute, if he would only take the time to sand the holes. I have a delrin Olwell flute (the only one on the planet so far) that is magnificent in playability and appearance. I will admit, though, that it doesn’t go beyond being a great flute. With a wood flute, you can usually feel something beyond the instrument, maybe the spirit of the tree or something, and with a plastic flute, it’s just a working flute. But that’s not necessarily a deal breaker.
I guess my point is that I think many of the makers of wood flutes take more time and care in the making of flutes than do those who make flutes to sell inexpensively.
Jessie
“I guess my point is that I think many of the makers of wood flutes take more time and care in the making of flutes than do those who make flutes to sell inexpensively.
Jessie”
OK, consider this… Why would any high end maker take less care or accuracy in an instrument just because it’s made from Delrin? (same maker doing wood vs. Delrin)
Delrin, machines like a dream. It’s stronger than wood and needs no seasoning or special care with regard to selection of grain or variances in density. Lower material costs and less time to fabricate reduces the selling price… but it shouldn’t affect the price per hour to the maker. Agreed?
Unless other factors are altered, like decorative rings or scrollwork that might command a higher price per hour due to their complexity. These would only found on the more expensive instruments.
The accuracy of the cuts, care and placement of the tone holes, voicing and tuning should all receive the same attention.
Well, the fact is, a number of makers have commented that working with Delrin is a bitch, particularly due to the tendancy of tools to “Dig in” when turning on a wood lathe. I hear there’s little problem on the metal lathe. Hammy Hamilton said publicly, on the wooden flute list recently, that he’d made one Delrin flute and was not interested in offering them regularly because the polymer was such a pain in the ass to work with. So there you have it strait from the horse’s mouth.
Further, all one needs to do is look at the inside of the tone and compensator holes on an M&E or Seery to see that the level of finish is no where near as good as on a decent wooden flute - I’ve had my hands on two M&E’s, and one Seery, and so far each of them had very rough tone hole chimneys - which could certainly have an effect on the tone. I have also noticed that the embouchure holes were not as well finished on these flutes as well.
I have no doubt by the way, the Desi and Michael can both turnout very nice woodenflutes, and the Polymer flutes available so far have their place to be sure, but the economics at this point seem to dictate that the market won’t bear a $1200 Delrin Flute, and since the time effort and cost (Delrin rod stock isn’t cheap) of making a Delrin flute is nearly equal that of a wooden flute, then something has to give, and in these flutes it’s final finish. Jessie’s Delrin Olwell proves it can be done better, much better, but for much more money…
By the way, Doorley now plays a Cocus Olwell.
Loren
[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2002-11-05 20:04 ]
On 2002-11-05 18:23, Tony wrote:
“I guess my point is that I think many of the makers of wood flutes take more time and care in the making of flutes than do those who make flutes to sell inexpensively.
Jessie”OK, consider this… Why would any high end maker take less care or accuracy in an instrument just because it’s made from Delrin? (same maker doing wood vs. Delrin)
Um, wow. That is quite a misrepresentation. Where did I say that a given maker would take less care on a delrin flute than on a wood one??? In fact, when I described my delrin Olwell, I said EXACTLY the opposite.
Olwell, Hammy, and their ilk (<–sp?) are known for very high end flutes. Seery and Cronnoly are known for budget flutes.
Jessie
Jessie,
So you have that polymer Olwell! I visited Patrick’s shop this summer, and he was telling me about that flute. I’m sure it’s a great instrument, but Pat did not seem too enthused about polymer…it was humorous to hear him talk about making the flute. Anyway, it’s fun to know who has it.
Micah
Yeah, as Loren mentioned generally, Pat found the delrin annoying, in that it grabbed his tools and he had to clear the area more often than with wood. But it turned out very nicely. Interestingly, though, Pat is famous for his flutes looking so well-finished. He didn’t bother on this one. So I did it myself. (I am a jeweler, so sanding/polishing is no problem for me.)
J
When considering an instrument purchase, I would hesitate to to put too much weight (in either direction) on postings from an Internet message board.
The best way is to try different makes of flutes until you find one that “fits;” seeing that for most of us that is impossible, do Internet research, email both makers and players, try to aquire professional recordings of different flutes, listen for one whose sound haunts and fascinates you.
Don’t discount the message board, but don’t put excessive weight on it either. And never trust an “expert” unless you know his history and have proof of his ability to play different flutes and play them well. Thus, seek recordings and the opinions of recorded artists whose work you respect.
We are lucky in this regard: Irish and folk musicians are typically very approachable people; the classical world is quite different.
Best wishes to all,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
On 2002-11-05 16:56, Doc Jones wrote:
I’m wondering if anyone would like to share their experience with keyed polymer flutes (I know M&E makes one. Do Dixon or Seery?).Seems like it might be nice to have a cheaper keyed flute to see if it’s useful/desireable before shelling out a ton of dough and waiting for years.
Doc, Desi Seery does make keyed flutes, and there are some examples on the Seery website at http://www.csagraphics.com/seery.htm . Note that I’m webmaster.
Getting a keyed flute from Desi is not a simple task, as he makes the keys, rings, etc. all himself. I encourage anyone interested to contact him directly by phone or postal mail (no email) regarding pricing and delivery. I believe it’s quite a long wait due to his demand for and the simplicity of keyless flutes.
Also, once you have a keyed polymer flute, you are subject to the same reliability/leak concerns of a keyed wooden flute. This goes somewhat counter to one’s desire for the durability of the Delrin material. So I think keyless is a better way to go for this option.
Delrin actually costs more than blackwood, in the quantities that a flute maker would use, although there are likely less losses in manufacturing. Delrin tends to flex away from the tools, and requires slightly different shop techniques. It’s also quite slippery if polished (Delrin rod is also available with a Teflon component), and is deliberately roughed up so you can grip it.
Hammy Hamilton had made a Delrin flute for himself for travel and polished it. It played nicely, but tried to jump away from you. And to correct a typo in someone’s message further in this thread, he DOES NOT intend to make any as a commercial enterprise. I think most makers would prefer to put the considerable time and care into wood instruments. I believe that the polymer flutes have already found their station in society.
Kevin Krell
Kevin Krell
Typo corrected, thanks for pointing that out Kevin.
Loren
What the market will bear is certainly going to be a factor. Most of us probably wouldn’t spend $2k on a polymer keyed flute but labor on it would be similar for the maker.
I’m quite fond of sterling silver jewelry, but you see less interesting original work in it because it’s more annoying to work (heat scales) and you can’t charge the same for silver that you can for gold or platinum. So, if you’re making a living at it, you don’t fabricate in silver.
When blackwood and alternatives get to the point where cost and scarcity make polymer a better bet, this may change but that seems to be a long way off.
Also, once you’ve added keys, the polymer flutes go up in price in the same manner as a wooden flute. So you’d have to ask yourself if the reason you’d want a polymer still fits when you’re in the thousand plus end of a purchase.
James is, of course, right – these posts only tell you so much and you really need to play these different flutes made by different makers to decide. But, personally, I go with Loren’s position – the better polymer flutess don’t have too many advantages over the better wooden flutes, sonically speaking, whatever the reason is. Spending a few hundred for a decent durable climate-proof flute makes a great deal of sense, but once you’ve added keys, you’ve added price and destructibility and, IMHO, you’ve lost any reason to shell out for the polymer flutes over a keyed wooden one.
About two hours ago, I started to reply to this thread, went to dinner, chatted for a bit and when I checked back, the thread took on a whole new life.
Seeing that the top makers object to working with polymers… the whole thing becomes a moot point.
Well, they object, but in all fairness to polymer, I think that’s because they simply enjoy working in wood. I don’t think they object to the idea of polymer, but they literally get off on lathing wood, smelling it, touching it. That’s why most of them got into wooden instrument making in the first place. Plastic, polymer, etc., is a different material, kinda like a painter in oils switching to acrylic – the painting may be just as good, but without the smell of linseed…
I don’t know…I’m doing the math here and it looks to me like a 6-key M&E would set you back about $6-700 and you could have it in a matter of months. It would have a half-life of about 50 million years and require no maintenance.
On the other hand a fully-keyed wooden flute will be between $2500 and $3500 and I get to wait in line for years. The thing will need oiling (this must be fun while protecting the pads) and TLC.
My question is; has anyone played or owned a keyed M&E and if so, how does it perform.
Thanks much,
Doc
Perhaps the duplicator aboard the “ENTERPRISE” could be pressed into service duplicating Jessie’s delrin Olwell-
sigh…
Yes that would be nice. Alas, only in our dreams!
Loren
On 2002-11-22 22:35, Doc Jones wrote:
I don’t know…I’m doing the math here and it looks to me like a 6-key M&E would set you back about $6-700 and you could have it in a matter of months. It would have a half-life of about 50 million years and require no maintenance.On the other hand a fully-keyed wooden flute will be between $2500 and $3500 and I get to wait in line for years. The thing will need oiling (this must be fun while protecting the pads) and TLC.
My question is; has anyone played or owned a keyed M&E and if so, how does it perform.
Well, the answer to your first bit of math is that, even unkeyed, an M&E is no match for an Olwell, a Grinter, a Wilkes, etc., or even the lower-priced Hamiltons, McGees, etc. a – well, you get the picture. There are a lot of advantages to a delrin flute, to be sure, low maintainance and durability among them (I’d question the 50 million years, but in both the case of a wooden flute and a delrin, we’ll be long dead before either fail). But I’ve yet to hear, play, etc., a delrin flute that matches a decent wooden one.
So, that said, the question is, should someone spend toward the $1000 mark (I think you’re a bit low on the keyed M&E, but I could be wrong, and a bit high on the keyed wooden, depending on the maker) when they are now entering the costly world of the wooden flute anyway. In other words, spend $800 on a keyed plastic flute, or $1,500 on a keyed Hamilton – certainly a matter of choice and opinion. Yes, the M&E’s half the price, but no, it doesn’t really compare. And $800 is no small chunk of change, considering that in no short time period you’ll probably start hungering for a better flute anyway. So my feeling is, and it is, after all, only my opinion, why go that route at all?
Incidentally, the maintenance and TLC is part of the allure of owning something of quality, and should be looked at that way, and not as a chore.
BTW, the way around the waiting lists is to either buy a used flute, which will be there in short order, or buy from makers like Skip, who cranks out pretty great flutes at super-human speed. For used, you just may have to be more flexible in terms of what exactly you’re looking for, or not, but I personally don’t think I could sit on a waiting list again for awhile, myself…