Mopane versus Blackwood (again)

I realize that there has been a discussion about Mopane versus Black wood on this site, but I’m experiencing a bit of consternation due to a decision I have to make about purchasing a new flute. I’ve decided to buy one of Terry McGee’s flutes (Pratten or Rudall, I don’t know), and he has a Mopane flute that he is selling. Originally, I had planned on getting the Mopane one, as I’m aesthetically attracted to it; however, after reading some posts about the wood, I’m beginning to second guess my choice. I’m wondering if one can still produce the “reedy”, hard tone from this material; whether or not it’s too mellow/soft, and whether or not it’s as warp resisitant as Blackwood is. Any input would really help. (Calling all Mopane players!).

P.S. does anyone know the difference between Terry’s Rudall 5088 modell, and the Rudall Perfected?

I’d rely more on the maker’s representation of the differences with a particular flute. I’d agree somewhat with the previous assessments that mopane is possibly the closest to blackwood tone-wise (full-disclosure: I have played only one cocus flute, so I can’t offer a comparison WRT cocus).

My own experience having played several different blackwood and mopane flutes is (all other factors being equal) that the differences are not huge: both can be very reedy (when voiced properly) but mopane has greater “warmth” whereas blackwood has slightly more edge. I have played mopane flutes which are reedier than some blackwood flutes.

Trust the maker’s own assessment, as they are naturally most accustomed to their own flute voicing style, and thus (hopefully) as much as possible that removes one of the most significant variables from the equation.

N.B. - After your own skill level, the biggest difference is determined by the way it is voiced. Also, has the particular maker worked in mopane very much? The selection of the particular piece of wood will have some effect. Each wood has its own quirks, and comfort in the medium helps. After that, it’s your own skill in taking advantage of a particular style of voicing. But that reflects my idiosyncratic bias in the equation of wooden flute tone production (for me the formula only applies to the better flutes):

75% - player’s skill and flexibility
15% - flute maker’s voicing
10% - wood (of which the chosen headjoint wood seems to determine about 90% of any differences)

Of course it’s silly to represent subjective qualities with numbers, but I think it’s useful nonetheless.

A well-chosen piece of mopane is normally more stable than blackwood - whether that’s because the amount of available high-quality blackwood has decreased in past decades, or inherent differences in the wood, I can’t say. My own limited experience working with the wood leaves me with the impression that blackwood is more “brittle.” However, I wouldn’t advise anyone to buy their flute based on durability concerns–it’s not just a tool or an appliance.

I’ve owned two flutes in mopane, and I like the wood quite well. Perhaps a little warmer, less bright than blackwood, but certainly capable of a reedy tone. (That has more to do with the player and the flute design than the wood, anyway.) It’s durable and attractive, which are nice bonuses (or is the plural boni?). It may be a little heavier than blackwood, but I’m not sure.

Hi Paul!

Interesting thoughts Paul, also shared by many others on the board.

The first two I have no problem with even though I would like to increase the percentage leaving very little left for number three. :smiley:
I just cant grasp the reasons for how different woods can affect the sound quality of a flute and would be sincerely interested in any input.
Also why do you think that 90% of the difference due to wall material comes from the head?
I’m sure you read the two polymer/wood threads and there seem to be some crucial information that I’m missing as I am one out of very few (if not the only one) that believes that the wall material of different woods or plastics doesn’t have an affect on sound quality.

I have heard people discuss if a certain flute or wood type has a “reedy sound” or a “hard bottom D” but I always thought it was all up to the player.

Cheers!

/MarcusR

Hi Marcus,

I’ve heard (and read, though I cannot yet rediscover the source) convincing arguments that it’s the microscopic differences in texture that create these tonal differences despite similar profile & voicing–i.e., they generate different turbulence at the outside boundary of the air column. I leave it to the trained scientists amongst us to use the proper terminology or tell me I’ve got it all wrong.

I’m not representing it well, but the science seemed, in my limited judgement, valid. Certainly a more valid (if inconclusive) datapoint than the various tests with musicians and testing apparatus (apparati?) that have been done to answer this question: it seems to indicate that there could be a valid, objective, and inherent property that contributes to the differences we detect. However, it’s trying to isolate one aspect in an intensely multi-variable environment.

The rest is purely subjective assessment reinforced by the anecdotal evidence of many others with similar responses. I’ve been lucky enough to try at different times the same model of flute made at the same time in different woods, and to exchange headjoints of different woods on the same flute body–and listen to others do the same: a flute “tasting,” if you will. My silly formulation is just a representation of my impression of the amount of tonal change due to the various factors.

It’s not unlike systematic wine tasting or coffee cupping - a valid model for judging these types of factors (combination subjective/objective assessment of micro changes in the thing tested, paired against the predispositions, experience, and sensitivity of the tester).

I’ve seen (long ago) tables from two different tests done, one purportedly proving your belief and the other disproving it. Given that a mechanical/automated test appliance could not adequately represent all of the micro-adaptations a musician makes during performance, and on the other hand, a musician could not approach the level of consistency required for consistent results, (even if one used double-blind techniques) I sincerely doubt a conclusive result is possible using objective and scientifically sound measures. Even if it were, would the conclusions be useful to musicians? This is without even bringing into the equation the differences introduced by different makers, different voicings, and even different sticks of wood from the same tree.

I don’t think the question as it is usually phrased can be definitively answered in objective terms. For me that’s not necessary, though–I’ve experienced enough “high positive correlation” between wood types and tonal differences, all other factors being equal (as possible), that I’m comfortable with my own broad generalizations. I like mopane, boxwood, and blackwood flutes for different reasons, and with few exceptions, I’m not surprised by the changes in my own sound when I play flutes made from these different woods.

Further, even if there were or were not an inherent and objectively quantifiable difference between the tonal characteristics of wood types, I’m still going to make my choice of instrument based upon maker, voicing style, and accoustical model before making a choice of wood (with the possible exception of certain boxwood instruments, which, for me, break out of that 10% impact on tone–either that or figured boxwood just makes me soft in the head).

I wrote a poem about mopane once. It went:

No pain, no gain
Mo’ pain,
Mopane.

Hoo boy, gloves off. Doggerel for the iDog:

O Give me a flute in mopane
not an expensive suite by Armani
it’s warmer than blackwood
which is more prone to crack - would
Jim take a large bite? (He’s that brawny?)

(Naturally, the poem requires the 3 syllable pronunciation of mopane. 3-legged Doggerel. With a dog-leg between lines 4&5. To Cur-ry favor with the free-verse types, otherwise kown as the off-lead types. I should curb my enthusiasm, look what’s left on the sidewalk. Oof - a pun is the lowest form of humor. So that would make a bad pun…what?)

You’d never guess that anyone posting here had day jobs.

“O Give me a flute in mopane
not an expensive suite by Armani
it’s warmer than blackwood
which is more prone to crack - would
Jim take a large bite? (He’s that brawny?)”


Ask for advice on wood, and you get it in verse–I love this place.

Mopane. It sounds like a car Chevy tried to sell back in the 70’s.
Friends don’t let friends drive…Chevy Mopanes.

A flute player up from Killarney
had a bad reputation for blarney
His name was O’Kane,
and it wasn’t mopane
that his flute was made of, but mopane.


Dave Copley
Loveland, Ohio

Mopane smells nicer.

I had a Rudall Bleazy made of mopane. I originally made the choice because it was cheeper. I eventually sent it back and traded it in for a model with offset holes talored to my fingers. Bleazy offered me the Blackwood at no extra cost so I took him up on it. The tone was very similar on both flutes and to my recolection the blackwood seemed a little brighter, but not enough to say that it was really significant. Like maybe 5-8% more. I did like the mopane, but the blackwood seemed like more of an upgrade. I do like the stripes in the mopane, but I am sure it can vary.
If I were going to get an alternate wood from Mcgee I would probably go with lacewood, gidgee, or iron wood before I picked mopane!

Nate

Anybody has a Maurice Reviol flute?
He makes his in different woods, namely what he can get from NZ and his main preference of Honduras Rosewood. He also uses Satine and other exotics from South America.
If you do happen to have one let us know what tonal qualities are appreciated. I wish Mr. Reviol himself would upload some samples on his website.

Excellent limericks, lads. :laughing:

Mopane ages nicely. It is one tonewood I would consider just for appearance. In the picture below (from Casey Burns’ site) the 3rd from the left is mopane.

Also compare the pic of John Skelton’s mopane Bb with new footjoint:

Cheers,
Aaron

First and fifth from left are also mopane. I agree that it does age nicely. in good light a beautiful grain is evident, with color ranging from almost black to chestnut brown.

If I had the patience I would ask for Corktown Ironwood, or something along those lines—woods that he’s been working with longer. I’m just not sure really. Part of the issue is that I’m looking for a “travel” flute that I like to play as much as my Olwell, one that I didn’t have to wait for, so I wanted to try out the McGee flutes. Interestingly, noone really talks about them much on this website.
Anyway, I’m interested in one of the flutes he has right now–and I’m having troubles deciding. He’s never worked in Mopane before, and the one he has is the first one he’s built.
Pauls addition troubled me,“Also, has the particular maker worked in mopane very much? The selection of the particular piece of wood will have some effect.”
I mean, the guys been building flutes for 30 years, even if he’s never used Mopane before, you’d think he’d be capable of making a suitable choice.
Anyhow, it’s a lot of money and part of me realizes that I shouldn’t just make the choice on aesthetics, because if I don’t like the way it plays, I won’t pick it up.
What say you? Oh, btw, has anyone ever played one of his Rudall 5088 modells?
M

Hear him, hear him. The best sentence in the whole thread so far, even if it didn’t rhyme.

That could’ve made for a brilliant Os Mutantes song…(if it was in Brazillian Portuguese, of course…).

Thanks for taking the time for such an exhaustive answer Paul.

You made some very interesting points and I do think that I now understand what others mean when they talk about effects of wall material (or different types of woods) in relation to sound quality.

I have not played more than a handful of flutes and I’m not a good enough player to reach the limit on any of these flutes. I also have very little knowledge about woodworking and flute making so my approach to all this is purely theoretical.

I can understand that a very experienced player can bring a flute to a level where the effects you mentioned can make a difference in sound. But I’m not yet not convinced that this is an effect related to a certain type of wood. Maybe it’s just the combination where the player skill, makers voicing and microscopic properties fits and this ads an extra dimension to the sound, something that only would be valid for thatb particular flute. Maybe for some reason I don’t understand, this can be found more often for a Boxwood flute compared to other woods.

I understand how microscopic differences in the wood structure can affect the boundary layer of the vibrating air column resulting in tonal differences. But this type of effect need time to develop and should as I see it be more related to the wall structure in the body than the head.
Also, do you think that the tonal differences you have experienced would disappear if a thin layer of a sealing/filler was used to coat the bore?

A agree completely with you about the complexity of this phenomenon due to the reasons mentioned. But I do believe that more knowledge of these effects can be useful to musicians.
My interest is not to prove that different types of wood (or other wall materials) can make a difference or not on tonal differences or sound quality. The interesting part would be if an interior of a plastic material like PVC can be refined in such way that it would mimic the characteristics you experience when playing a very good Boxwood flute. I too believe that the inside texture of the bore will affect the sound characteristics even though I don’t see that these properties are related to specific types woods for the reasons discussed earlier. There are however numerous porous plastics and silicons that can be made with high accuracy and used for coating. I think it would be very interesting to see how much these properties can be altered and how they relate to the sound even though that would still be a very subjective measure. Then there are effects of thermal conductivity, moister build up and …

Cheers!

MarcusR

I’ve not tried a flute treated like this, but have noticed that there is for me a perceptible difference between: 1) a well-played flute that hasn’t been oiled for quite a while, 2) the same flute, feshly oiled, and 3) yet again the same flute after having its bore polished. Have also heard that some makers do seal their bores, and there is a subjective change in tone towards that of synthetic flutes </anectodal evidence>. Anyone out there have direct experience with an old or new wooden flute with a sealed bore? There’s also a woodwind repair guy, in AZ I think, who offers an oil immersion treatment with much discussed effects.

A agree completely with you about the complexity of this phenomenon due to the reasons mentioned. But I do believe that more knowledge of these effects can be useful to musicians.

Determination such as yours is what advances science and art - for my own neeeds I’m far too driven by filthy lucre and the principle of “good enough.”

The interesting part would be if an interior of a plastic material like PVC can be refined in such way that it would mimic the characteristics you experience when playing a very good Boxwood flute.

Aha! Now that’s an interesting question. Your investigation should, I think, include the fact that most wood, to varying degrees, changes with exposure to temperature, humidity and surface moisture–and further that the rate of change will produce different effects, e.g., a cracked headjoint. I make the assumption that most synthetics do not change in the same way, or the same environmental variable doesn’t produce the same effect. Important, if mimicry only is the objective.

There are however numerous porous plastics and silicons that can be made with high accuracy and used for coating. I think it would be very interesting to see how much these properties can be altered and how they relate to the sound even though that would still be a very subjective measure.

Fascinating, hadn’t thought about coatings used on plastics. Are these kind of materials expensive, or do the processes to apply such surface treatments require expensive setups? If so, then market factors may limit that short of someone with access and inclination. Unless of course, the sought-after properties are shared with some necessary objective of space or military research (viz. the Internet, or the US National Interstate highway system). Hmmm, space hydroponic tubes, or special-ops blowguns lead to advances in flute mfg…

Thanks MarcusR for the trenchant questioning on a perennial topic - good fun!