I know that I’m going to get some serious flaming here, but after seeing so much techno crap on this site of late, I have avoided posting here. But for what it’s worth, I sat down the other night and listened to one of those compilation CDs that included Mary Bergin playing Aisling Gheal. Absolutely beautiful. No frills. No fancy this and thats. Just plain and simple beauty. I remembered hearing Mary play this very tune at a funeral in Co. Galway last fall on a $3.00 Generation. Maybe there’s too much concentration on the technical things and not enough on playing this sacred stuff from the heart, where all good things come. And so I find myself diving back into my modest collection of music and listening to people who are not only technically superior, but people who play with great soul and spirit. Like Mary on the whistle, or El McMeen on the guitar. It is good to go back to the well every now and then.
Play from the heart and never mind the tech talk. Play as if those great people who have showed us all the way are all listening to you.
Oh, I don’t see any reason for you to get flamed, Bob. Just think of our conversations here as taking place in a giant ball room. Over in one corner they’re talking politics; in another it’s baseball (or cricket); in another it’s music.
I’d say that there’s plenty of room for talking about the kind of music that you’re interested in. Don’t let it stop you from posting - there’s probably dozens of other members that are wanting to discuss the same thing. No reason a Flook or Corrs discussion can’t exist at the same time that a more nostalgic post exists.
Whether you do get flamed is going to depend upon how people read your post: an opinion (I like…) or an assertion (you must like).
It will be interesting to see which way poeple read it.
Bob-- I agree with you totally. A good tune played simply and from the heart with feeling is a wonder to hear. Sometimes the simplest music is the hardest to really breathe life into. All the ornaments in the world can’t hide a poor musician’s lack of real feeling for the music.
I agree that Mary Bergin’s playing of Aisling Gheal is wonderful. I found a version on JC’s Tuneweb that is similar but significantly different. Do any of you know where a version can be found that is rather more like hers?
Apropos your comments on technique, Bob: I sat down and whistled Si Bheag Si Mhor with Derek Bell last evening ( On CD, don’t get excited ), and was astonished to realize I was embellishing the melody more than he was. Technique is useful – without it one cannot play at all – but it’s a means, not an end.
Play from the heart and never mind the tech talk. Play as if those great people who have showed us all the way are all listening to you.
Playing from the heart is great advice - but one actually needs fingers as well as a heart. Not everyone can figure out how to play totally intuitively and technical advice is not crap. Indeed from your previous posts it would seem that you yourself have put technical questions to your beloved (and mine) Mary Bergin…
After all, when Mary teaches, what does she try to communicate? Technique - she doesn’t spend time trying to communicate feeling. Presumably you either have that or you don’t.
Years ago someone told me the advice from a respected teacher or Irish music. I forget who told me, I forget the name of the musician he was quoting, and I forget the exact words, but it was along these lines:
When you practise, work hard on your technique, remembering all the advice I’ve given you. When you go out to play, forget everything and just play.
Maybe that would bridge the gap between our need to talk tech and your desire for more heart?
One last point about the heart, Bob: it is the seat of patience and tolerance…
Funny this should come up, but John Skelton did work on this during one of his classes this summer. John was teaching The Little Fair Canavans; a slipjig that sounds ricch and wonderful played slow, but much less so if played fast. After teaching all the parts, some ornaments and variations, John had us all playing the tune together. The first several times through, we focused on one or another. After that, John played it through with a lot of feeling; slow, lazy with exagerated emphasis on parts that made measures seem to drag on while not changing the rhythm. The he asked everyone to play it again in saying “. . .I don’t want you to worry about any of the bells & whistles, just play it slow and rolling with a lot of feeling. . .”
In doing that, I think John was able to communicate “with feeling” through his playing and then asked everyone else to try it. Even while being played by about 10 people at the same time, the tune DID sound different than any other playing. As a group we were able to play it with feeling and as per John’s request.
I think a creative teacher can choose to lead students to playing with soul and spirit. In part, Stevie’s quote of gan anum. . .
When you practise, work hard on your technique, remembering all the advice I’ve given you. When you go out to play, forget everything and just play.
. . . Is really at the core. Feeling/soul and spirit is not about technique. I think, though, that it must come after achieving some level of raw technical ability with a tune. It’s tough to walk before you can crawl. . .
I think, also (at least I hope) that this can also be practiced just like the technical stuff.
I think we may be discussing two different things here: technique and ornamentation. And I tend to agree with all that’s been said. There is a LOT of over-ornamentation done by the average player, and I agree that simple is better in this view. I hear too many players who ornament every bar, but lose the rhythm, phrasing and basic tune.
But technique. . .no, you can’t dismiss it. If my fingers don’t come down cleanly, if my grace notes (cuts, taps, rolls, the whole ball of wax) can’t be distiguished from the melody, if all sorts of extraneous blips appear when I go from one note to another, then I’d better stop calling myself a modest whistler and go back to being a novice.
The crann discussion, and a lot of what I’ve seen of rolls and cuts and such, seems to be geared to expert players, and they have a right to their discussions here. Some day I may feel competent enough to voice an opinion.
I have been teaching music now for many years. I have found that some people have a natural affinity for the technique of an instrument so can “play from the heart” without having to worry about ‘how to get the notes out’. (They require little teaching as they can likely figure things out themselves) Others have all the heart in the world but find that the technique required to play is an obstacle to creative expression. Those people often benefit from the advice of other more experienced players.
In this way the technical advice offered by the members of this board can be very helpful
Then there are the people who have lots of technique and no heart. (Too bad those ones don’t realize that they have totally missed the boat!! ) The way I see it, this board is an opportunity to share ideas, advice and experience. Music-making happens elsewhere
O.K. Bob, you were expecting some serious flaming so here it comes! First of all I have no quarrel with playing beautiful tunes from the heart with all the feeling and passion that you can possibly put into the music. I think that is what every serious whistle player strives for and hopes to achieve. When serious teachers like StevieJ and others take the time to give technical advice to people on this board it is to share information with them that might make them better players. To characterize these postings as “techno crap” is not only rude but does a disservice to anyone who might believe you. It would be ridiculous to think that people like Mary Bergin or Sean Potts could play the beautiful, soulful Airs that they play as some “miraculous” outpouring of their hearts without the years they have spent mastering technique. I once slowed down “Summertime” on the Chieftains #5 CD thinking here is a simple, beautiful tune I can learn to play. Simple? Absolutely not! Not if you want to play it the way Potts or Moloney plays it. The tune is highly ornamented with some of the notes having three and four grace notes attached to them. It’s loaded with “frills and fancy this and that’s”! What happens is that in the hands of a master it comes out as “just plain and simple beauty”! If a player didn’t know this he or she could never hope to achieve the same beauty no matter how they played from the heart with the tears streaming down their cheeks!
Aisling Gheál is also on Mary’s Feadoga Stáin 2. A very beautiful piece, I’ll give you that!
I believe playing from the heart can be practised (although I don’t mean to say that I do it extremely well). The more you do it, the easier it is for you to be vulnerable, honest and expose your emotions in your music. Check out this thread for a book on non-technical aspects of music. Great book which I recommended before. Heres a copy of the thread:
I got this book that might be useful to you guys (or musicians in general): “The Art of Practicing - A guide to making music from the heart” by Madeline Bruser, published by Bell Tower.
It is a book that gives lots of practice and performing tips, like how to connect with your audience and gain energy by acknowledging their presence rather than by blocking them out, what would be a positive attitude for practising, etc. Many skills are covered, including listening, memorisation, posture, expression, etc. Theres lots of nice pointers in there that make it a really good book for the novice or experienced musicians.
Although the anecdotes are usually about classical musicians because the author is a classical pianist, the ideas in there are very universal and are all applicable too all kinds of musicians. I highly recommend this book to those who are interested in horning the non-technical aspects of musicianship and practice. At about US$12 its extremely good value, and the advice offered in there is often priceless. Check it out at your local bookstore or at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect-home/chifffippltheult and support C& F at the same time!
That said, I believe it is not possible (or extremely difficult) for a person without a certain level of technical accomplishment and familiarity of the instrument to “play from the heart” - to the extent that the listeners feel the emotion as well.
The piece can be likened to a novel. If the author doesn’t have enough vocabulary, writing and phrasing skill, it isn’t very likely that readers will be touched by the writing. He/she doesn’t have enough skill in the realm of words to convey the emotions he/she wishes to fluently.
[ This Message was edited by: Eldarion on 2002-01-09 01:51 ]
Well, those who have posted very thoughtfully in the past that replied to my initial posting here did not disappoint. And those who I thought respond from another oriface other than their mouths did not disappoint either. Technique must be taught, but to beat it to death is another thing. When people ask about my whistles, I always respond “there are only six holes and that’s it…simple”. Sometimes the simple playing of simply beautiful melodies is enough. I have lately taken to playing waltzes. They are simple and yet, beautiful. They do not require endless commentary with x’s and o’s. Two good examples of this are Kelli Trottier’s “Braelyn” and “The Waltz of the White Lilies” as heard on Deanta’s “Whisper of a Secret”. Not only are these tunes just drop dead gorgeous, but there are no fancy moves in them. And, I promise that there will be none when I record these two lovely tunes with Jay Ungar next month. All I’m trying to say is to look at the simplicity some time. We all do the techno things, but all I’m getting at is that sometimes it just isn’t necessary to drone endlessly about them. And there are no deep hidden meanings in this; I am not smart enough to do that. But I am happy and thankful for each of your postings.
Reading this thread reminded me of the Celtic Christmas CD I received for, well, Christmas.
Unlike most of my other “Celtic” compilations, which include a LOT of orchestration, with token Celtic instruments; this CD included Christmas carols played on nothing more than traditional folk instruments–as if I had walked down to the local pub on Chrsitmas Eve, and the session started into the spirit of the season.
Incredible CD! Yes, there was a lot of cool ornamentation; and I admit I thoroughly enjoyed Hark the Herald Angels Sing played first straight, then as a jig, and finally as a reel. And the bodhran work was exceptional!
BTW: I had a chance to play my whistle in my church choir’s Christmas program. Since the whistle countered the soloist, I omitted almost all ornamentation, except to “roll” into the final whole note. I got more comments about how beautiful the whistle sounded–and "how did you do that “roll” "?
Sometimes the simplest things confound the wise.
Yes, I try to improve technically (I’ve played violin since grade 4 and am still learning), but many comment that the biggest improvement has been when I master the technical stuff and can then “play from the heart.”
I’ve probably jabbered enough for now.
-Tom
Tom Gallagher
aka fiddling_tenor fiddlingtenor@usa.com
“If schools had glass walls, the kids could watch the fire engine go by without having to stand up.”
[ This Message was edited by: fiddling_tenor on 2002-01-09 09:19 ]
On 2002-01-09 08:18, Whistleworks wrote:
Well, those who have posted very thoughtfully in the past that replied to my initial posting here did not disappoint. And those who I thought respond from another oriface other than their mouths did not disappoint either.
And whose responses exactly do you think came from an orfice other than the mouth? I wonder at the fact that you posted your from-the-heart bit expecting certain replies from certain people.
Well, I am glad you can play from the heart and I envy and commend you for it; when you find a chance, try posting from the heart.
[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-01-09 09:24 ]
First of all , a minor quibble maybe, how basic have you gone when you put a guitar under a slow air. I recommend reading up a bit in the companion to Irish traditional music where the following is said: ‘one is not complimented for fingering or ornamentation in slow air playing; it is emotion or mediation of it which is the desired quality’. Comparing a slow air to an ornamented dance tune and then dismissing the latter as ‘techno crap’ does seem a bit out of place. They are different things.
I am, by the way, not fully sure what ‘techno crap’ is supposed to be: technique, ornamentation? Ornamentation is an essential part of the music, it is used to a varying extend by different players, as has been said so often: it only a means to an end, nothing more although when learning it can be a goal (and a task) to get it right. Condemning it seems out of place, especially when taking Mary Bergin as your example: she is after all one of the players who took the instrument to new realms by playing highly ornamented, yet bright sounding fast music on it.
I think a few issues have been become mixed up in this discussion, music is emotion, communication and can only be played properly and meaningfully from the heart so far I agree, using the means at hand (i.e. ornamentation, technique) should not be dismissed as crap.
On the above mentioned ‘An Ceannabháin Bhána’ by the way: this started out as a lullaby collected by Seamus Ennis in Connemara where it was sung by a woman dandling two childeren. Mici and Mhaire, their surname was Cannavan and I suppose you can guess at the colour of their hair. Ennis often sang the song as an example to show how the tune would really do it. I have him on tape talking about these things and at one point he says ‘there’s no point in running the tune off like a good typist typing’. And that’s, I think, what we are really talking about here.
On 2002-01-09 09:45, Peter Laban wrote:On the above mentioned ‘An Ceannabháin Bhána’ by the way: this started out as a lullaby collected by Seamus Ennis in Connemara where it was sung by a woman dandling two childeren. Mici and Mhaire, their surname was Cannavan and I suppose you can guess at the colour of their hair
ROFLMFAO! I would have sworn that someone misspelled Caravan some time in the misty past, and the wrong name stuck!
I’m going back to listen to it again, with a whole different mental image.
Bob, this discussion is very similar to those regarding whistle-playing styles.
There are many styles of music. Discussing the merits of diferent styles is like disussing the merits of diferent religions - - to each their own . If you enjoy playing beautiful simple tunes “from the heart” go ahead, nobody is saying that is a bad thing, in fact it is a wonderful thing. But please don’t condemn others who are trying to learn, practice, master and share other more complex/technical styles. Many of the people on this board have no access to good players or teachers other than in recordings of CDs. The only way they can learn any technique is through trial/error and discussion and sharing on this board. That too is a wonderful thing. Good luck and have fun with your recording with Jay Unger.
), and was astonished to realize I was embellishing the melody more than he was. Technique is useful – without it one cannot play at all – but it’s a means, not an end.