I don’t remember if I posted a formal introduction of myself when I joined up here at C&F. I turned 51 the other day so I have a convenient excuse to use for the memory lapse.
I am relatively new to C&F, to playing the whistle seriously, and to more than a passing interest in Irish music although I have had Irish music playing in the background most of my life. I have played guitar since I was 21. The past 10-12 years I played guitar for a flamenco dance group. That was cut short by a wrist injury. I rediscovered the whistle while tossing around for some way to keep music making in my life that was less physically demanding than flamenco guitar.
While lurking around here the past few months I have found here in the whistle/celtic music world some of the same issues that were debated over and over by the flamenco crowd:
- Read music or don’t read music.
- Can a classically trained musician ever really sound “traditional”?
- What do these young whipper-snappers think they are doing to our traditional music with their drum kits, electric guitars, new fangled instruments, etc., etc…
- Playing fast always means playing well/badly; and closely related, playing more notes is always better/worse than playing fewer notes.
- Too much technique is bad/good
- You can’t really play flamenco/Irish trad authentically without having grown up in Andalucia/west Ireland.
These are just a few of them. It seems to me that these issues transcend any one musical genre. I think it’s good to keep talking about these issues to clarify them. But most important is listening to and playing the music.
Mike
When I first joined the Community a few months ago, I was introduced to this host of issues I hadnt even known existed. And for a while I didnt practice much, spending the time instead on the Chiffboard.
Its nice to hear that these issues transcend the IrTrad niche. You’ve confirmed for me that there are no additional issues of note out there, and now that I’ve reconciled my own personal views on each of these issues, I find myself practicing again. As it should be, I suppose.
I think my neighbors preferred my obsession with the Chiffboard to my obsession with the whistle.
On 2002-06-26 09:13, burnsbyrne wrote:
- You can’t really play flamenco/Irish trad authentically without having grown up in Andalucia/west Ireland.
I don’t remember actually reading you’d have to be born in a particular place or have specific genes [some quarters will ventilate these thoughts but I have not seen them expressed on this board]to learn the music properly. It’s true though that you will have to spend time sitting down with genuine traditional musicians and to get it down really it is almost inevitable to spend so much time with them, you may as well be there permanently
Personally, I can see why they’d have that view, because it might/would be easier learning that particular music style if you were around it all the time and could hear how the “people in the know” play.
But, I think, IMO, that if you want to learn something bad enough, and if you’re willing to work at it, you’ll learn it, regardless of heritage, background, ethnicity, ect. In music, it’s determination and love of it, not where you come from or where you live.
Heck, I live out in the bloody boonies in NC Idaho and there’s absolutely NO ONE who’s even remotely interested in Celtic/Irish music… Well, almost no one… 
and yet I still was interested and wanted to learn and went from there… But my Grandad was raised in England and Ireland, so I kind of had an outside (or is it inside?) influence…
I wish to return to Rivendell
Where peace and Elven folk do dwell…
For I’ve journeyed far through Hill and Dale
To the East and West of which tales do tell,
But none is so fair as my Rivendell.
[ This Message was edited by: The Whistling Elf on 2002-06-26 11:24 ]
On 2002-06-26 10:05, Peter Laban wrote:
On 2002-06-26 09:13, burnsbyrne wrote:
- You can’t really play flamenco/Irish trad authentically without having grown up in Andalucia/west Ireland.
I don’t remember actually reading you’d have to be born in a particular place or have specific genes [some quarters will ventilate these thoughts but I have not seen them expressed on this board]to learn the music properly. It’s true though that you will have to spend time sitting down with genuine traditional musicians and to get it down really it is almost inevitable to spend so much time with them, you may as well be there permanently
In flamenco there is a gipsy vs non-gipsy thing that crops up often. I agree completly with Peter that the only way to really internalize the tradition is face to face with good players.
Mike
Hi Mike,
Nice to know there is another flamenco guitarist on board! I never played for a dance group but played with a bunch of friends at parties held at each other’s houses or at the home of a guitar maker friend. I remember the comments in our group about who played real flamenco and who didn’t and the recordings of people like Manitas de Plata were considered fit only to wrap up left over fish! Ramone Montoya was definitely in but Carlos Montoya was not mentioned in polite conversation!
Although most of us learned by listening to records and from the few tutorials available, we believed that it was necessary to go to Spain and study with a real gypsy guitarist to reach the ultimate level. I couldn’t take the time out to do that, but my worst problem was that my damn fingernails kept breaking off! ( Not a problem in whistle playing!) I began to wonder why I was trying to master gypsy music (although I did love it) and neglecting the rich Celtic music of my own ancestors. To make a long story short I began playing the tin whistle and got my initial inspiration from the early recordings of the Chieftains.
I think you will find the whistle a lot easier to play than the guitar. I find the hardest part of whistle playing breath control, i.e. the ability to play a series of continuous phrases without a noticeable break in the sound. That is about the only thing we didn’t have to worry about playing the guitar! I agree with you that the important thing in music is just to listen and play it and if you love it, all the better. Good luck on your playing!
Best wishes, Tom
Ha. Paco de Lucia = Mary Bergin
Ottmar Liebert = Joanie Madden well, sort of but she probably plays with her shoes on.
Lots of gypsies here in Bay Area, especially in Marin. We have all kinds of dance and music events and I have been to a few fiestas. As I used to sell flamenco and classical guitars (and we had teachers too) I had a lot of exposure including trying to watch those guys when they came in my store… I have played some very old and valuable and well as new master flam. guitars (Lester deVoe). Almost got Santana to buy a deVoe one day, he thought they were great.
The lore says that they hate to cross water and once they’re here they don’t go home. So Agustin Rios and others live here permanently or at least did 15 years ago. Supposedly they used to get Sabicas stinkin drunk to get him here.. but they love to tell stories and embroider facts so who knows. I have forgotten more than I remember about flamenco players and styles but sure remember the thrills of listening and playing. your notes brought back some memories.
One of these days, we’ll have to build some parallels between the concept of “action” on guitars and whistles. I mean, blowing a Chieftains is like playing a Ramirez classical with 1/4" action to me. I guess the Hoovers are the thin bodies cypress equivalents to a point. I always liked flamenco negra guitars as a compromise.
Gypsy Kings have really turned it in another direction as most outsiders don;t know the differences. Trad, neo-trad… boy it is familiar. As usual, the Germans study and publish. There is a book at Guitar Center on how to sound just like the Gypsy Kings!!! Strum patterns etc and of course, TABLATURE.
If you read my lurid other-thread prose, you would know I once jokingly talked about a proposed parallel between gypsies/ ethnic Spanish and travelers/Irish but the travelers seem more influential in Scotland. Sean nos singing, cante jondo, get it?.. A little throatier but they do sing through their noses too.
Best wishes,
El Lance de California
On 2002-06-27 00:45, The Weekenders wrote:
I once jokingly talked about a proposed parallel between gypsies/ ethnic Spanish and travelers/Irish but the travelers seem more influential in Scotland
Maybe it’s time now to get hold of the complete recordings of Johnny Doran made in 1948 for the irish Folklore commission.
Or listen to the piping of Felix Doran, Paddy Keenan, Finbar Furey, Mickey Dunne, John Rooney ;-]
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-06-27 04:06 ]
On 2002-06-27 00:45, The Weekenders wrote:
Ha. Paco de Lucia = Mary Bergin
Ottmar Liebert = Joanie Madden well, sort of but she probably plays with her shoes on.
I would ammend your characterization to say Ottmar Liebert = Yanni. Joanie Madden can at least play Irish Trad when she wants to.
Mike
Burnsy:
Re comparison
Well, i was joking about Bloomfields continual reference to her “new-agey” accompaniment.
The guys a scream. I guess he still tours and records?? I have been out of any semblance of guitar scene for a long time but just play for gigs and stuff. The barefoot part always killed me.
A few years ago Ottmar joined a flamenco mailing list that I was on at the time. He was flamed so vehemently and continuously that he unsubscribed in a week or two. But to show that he had a sense of humor he posted some of the most scathing remarks on his web site.
Re the comparison: I should have included a smiley. I’ve heard Joanie’s cds. I wanted to become one with the goddess vibrations within me but I am an agnostic so the goddess wouldn’t come. :>)
Mike
Don’t forget Marion Zimmer Bradley lives near here too (Mists of Avalon). Lots of that goddess stuff around via festivals, arts project/grants, bumper stickers, specialty stores.
hands-down most absurd is “Women Walking Tall” multi-year grant for women to make tree-like fabric costumes and walk on stilts at community events. I kid you not.
Add it to the list of nuts and fruits of California. And yes, Joanie has that other female market covered here as well.. Cherish the Womyn.
On thin ice, I just can’t help but notice.
Your pal, the Weekenders.
On 2002-06-27 11:17, The Weekenders wrote:
Burnsy:
Re comparison
Well, i was joking about Bloomfields continual reference to her “new-agey” accompaniment…
I am not joking about it, I am complaining about it. It may be silly, it may be old-fashioned, but somehow I still wish that good musicians would make good music. Call me naive, but there you have it.
Now, don’t even get me started on Seamus Egan (I am still awaiting the next flame from Loren on that one).
Her cd is sold in the New Age section in the mega-marts like Borders. So they aren’t joking either.
On 2002-06-27 12:21, The Weekenders wrote:
Don’t forget Marion Zimmer Bradley lives near here too (Mists of Avalon). Lots of that goddess stuff around via festivals, arts project/grants, bumper stickers, specialty stores.
hands-down most absurd is “Women Walking Tall” multi-year grant for women to make tree-like fabric costumes and walk on stilts at community events. I kid you not.
Add it to the list of nuts and fruits of California. And yes, Joanie has that other female market covered here as well.. Cherish the Womyn.
On thin ice, I just can’t help but notice.
Your pal, the Weekenders.
Weekenders, if they’re wearing necklaces with the Venus of Willendorf around their necks, you are in de-e-e-e-e-e-e-p doodoo! If they’re wearing that little double ax thingie, better run for the hills! Snerk! Laughing at myself, the only early 70’s feminist in Deadwood…
Waiting for the Mothership…
[ This Message was edited by: Anna Martinez on 2002-06-27 15:02 ]
You are so smart, Anna and yes, I have seen both. The former I mentioned wear the Venus, the latter the axe.
Very familiar ground but still thin ice on my part to mention. But others on this Board must be wondering what the heck…??
On 2002-06-27 12:21, The Weekenders wrote:
Don’t forget Marion Zimmer Bradley lives near here too (Mists of Avalon) …
Hmm …
Marion Zimmer Bradley died September 1999.
Where did ya say ya lived? And do the spirits …
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
P.S. Since were on the subject of Fantasy the following is for Pern lovers - best bumpers sticker of the day:
Do Not Meddle in the Affairs of DragonsFor thou art crunchy and good with ketchup
[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-06-27 17:08 ]
Well, she did live in Albany I think and had many admirers and followers. I forgot about her demise, smarty. Didya see the movie they made of Mists? Pretty cheesy.
The points she made in the book that were most valuable to me, and which I have carried, are those regarding the transition from hunter/gatherer to agricultural and all that implied and resulted in. It really helped to make sense of the way we view and once viewed Nature. The dichotomy that Camille Paglia wrote about, Apollonian versus Cthonian, resonated further along those lines.
But yes, like Generalissimo Francisco Franco, she is still dead.
OT for everyone, except Weekender.
Weekender,
I have enjoyed most of her (MZB) books, however, most were read several years ago. Before WhOA set in I had SF/F-OA (Sci-Fi/Fantasy Obsessive Acquisition). I have, for the most part, recovered. Having read and collected over a millenia of such, they tend to blur; however, I preferred MZB’s Dark Over series for its socio-psychological extrapolations on the emergence psi technology… hmm …slipped into academic lexicon… lets get back to just plan english… I liked what she thought would happen if we started being able to read minds.
My comment in the earlier post was meant in jest. I’ve had a rather other worldly day today, not as securely attached this reality at times.
Enough sidelines, back to important stuff like …
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-06-27 17:32 ]