Presenting a Culture

Irish Flute
1

Forgive me if this topic has been discussed before, but it’s something that’s always on my mind:

It goes along with the question of what makes authentic style or authentic playing, and also the…issue of pure-drop vs. neo-trad vs. modern interpretation (and even whether you should use the word “Celtic” at all, or stick to “Irish,” “Scots,” etc…)

Hmm..hard question to frame, actually. But my thinking goes like this: if you’re playing in public, whether it be at a session or a performance, how do you be responsible to a culture that you may not have been raised in, or even may not really be a part of at all (e.g., my roots are mainly swedish and german; my maternal grandfather was welsh)? Is it enough to love and promote the culture to the best of your ability, or is partaking of and presenting that cuture without having been steeped in it a form of cutural imperialism? I’ve always been drawn to (forgive me for using the word) Celtic cultures, ever since I can remember, but it isn’t my own culture, and I do worry about perpetuating some weird kind of opression where there has been so much already, historically, even if it comes from a well-meaning heart.

In singer’s circles there’s often a stated agenda that you shouldn’t do music that isn’t a direct part of your personal cutural heritage–not sing in gaelic if it isn’t a language you were brought up in, or do only the Americanized versions of songs (Shady Groves as opposed to Matty Groves, etc.). But how much can you do that without veering off into musical territory that maybe doesn’t interest you as much? And how does that carry over into instrumental music?

Well, sorry if this is long and vague–as I said, it’s something I think about, living as I do in a young land where cultural boundaries are often blurred. And I’m interested to know what others think.

Caitlin

2

As far as I know, I have no direct Irish roots either, but I will be helping on the executive for the Local Comholtas Ceoltori Eirenn branch ( I know, spelling is wrong), as well I play irish and scottish music (predominantly irish) all the time.

The thing is, that I will mostly be promoting the music… but the culture part I hope to learn more of now…


Anyway, just as an aside: I too am of Scandanvian descent (although mine is Norwegian), and from what I know of Vikings, this means that there is a fair chance we DO have some irish in us…

(and some viking in the irish people…)

3

If you are really interested in authenticity, find a teacher, or if that’s not an option in your area, check out the Scoiltrad lessons taught and graded by Conal O’Grada.

He is very much the Real Thing. He can help you get where you want to be…my playing is years ahead of where it would have been otherwise.

–James

4

It’s not genetic at all, it’s cultural in the sense of requiring lots of the right kind of exposure. I’m mainly Gael in heritage, but that does not, in and of itself, give me any advantage at all. Of course I know the stories, myths, history and humour and so on as it survived in my family after migration and, of course, the music has never sounded strange or foreign to me.

As for singing only in a language you speak fluently, good advice I think, on the whole. But I think what maters is whether you speak it fluently and not whether you grew up speaking it, that just makes it easier.

I think Ewan McColl is responsible for the policy that singers only sing the songs of their own culture; it was a strict rule in his own folk club. Well it turns out that McColl was born in Salford (I think) and was only pretending to be Scottish. I’d love to have seen him ‘outed’ in front of his admiring audience by someone who remembered him as a child, the silly old fraud. In the matter of tradition, a lot is not what it seems.

5

If you are really interested in authenticity, find a teacher, or if that’s not an option in your area, check out the Scoiltrad lessons taught and graded by Conal O’Grada.

Well, the nearest teacher is about 300 miles away. I have done workshops at festivals and like that.

what I’m really interested in, tho’, is the question of what “authenticity” means. It’s one of those terms that seems to mean many different things to many different people. I still don’t know what it means to me.

Caitlin

6

Im Swedish, I live in Sweden and was raised in Sweden and I play Irish music and I’m trying to learn as much as I can about the culture surrounding it and the Irish culture in general so I kind of know how you feel.

For me it’s got to do mainly with respect. If you respect the culture and if you are really interested in the culture you will emerse yourself in it as much as you can. That’s probably the first step. As you emerse yourself in the culture (mabey the word music is better here since that’s what we are talking about in the first place) you will start to learn a lot about it. How it sounds, feels and what it means to the people who are steeped in the tradition.
Then there is always the question of how you should emerse yourself. Visiting local sessions is always good, but not all sessions are pure. Listening to a lot of music is always great, be it on recordings or live. And a teacher is better still, but you can never listen too much.
It is probably harder to be an Irish musician if your not Irish but many people have succeded. If you have a good enough feeling for the music and culture you will be quite free to develop your own style. In the end, the definition of what is pure has to come from yourself. If you develop your style too much you might not be pure in other peoples eyes, but what matters most is your own definition.
If you really don’t want to stray from the tradition, try to play tunes just as you hear them at a real session, or played by a not to fancy but “real” Irish group with more than one or two melody instruments.

Now, I think I acctually managed to make my answer even more vague than your question. It’s late in Sweden.

7

Authenticity is something you learn to recognise as you grow in the music, and as it grows in you and you approach authenticity as well.

You could probably come up with an elaborate well-worded definition for the word authenticity, but I’m afraid you’ll find it an explanation that fails to explain anything.

–James

P.S. I just read back over this, and I hope I’m not coming across too strong. It’s just that, to me, when you want to define authenticity before you learn to play it, you’re telling me you’d love to learn to write, couldn’t we do that before we learn to read?

8

This is an interesting topic. I’m sure it’s helpful to have been immersed (or born) into a culture in order to get the feel of a particular musical style, but I don’t believe it’s a requirement. I was born in the U.S., but I specialize in music of European origin. Do I play classical music as well as an Austrian would? I don’t know. (I certainly can’t quite get the Viennese lilt in a waltz!)

I have spent years “socializing” myself to classical music, beginning with childhood, continuing with my music degree, and by playing professionally in the field. IMHO, this socialization is what makes my playing of classical music authentic. To play Irish music “authentically” I’ll have to do a similar socialization. I have the fingers and the chops, but I’ll have to develop the feel.

On the other hand, we play music for enjoyment (of ourselves and our listeners). It can be fun, and it can be good, even if it’s not entirely authentic. Authenticity is terribly hard to define, anyway: There may be several styles within a discipline that could be considered authentic. I don’t believe we have to split hairs over who is most authentic. Lets have fun playing, immerse ourselves in the style, and learn as we go.

Dana

9

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again. It’s folk music. There are people who would love to have a monopoly on what constitutes tradition, but they’d all be wrong. Tradition is constantly evolving – you don’t have to like every direction it takes, but it will take new directions. If the modern stuff is crap, then just when did what constitutes traditional freeze? Keyless flutes, plastic-mouthpiece whistles, bouzoukis, and numerous other things that we take for granted have been introduced in the last 3-6 decades.

I happen to think that Steeleye Span are/were (I can never keep track) about the best traditional band ever. They’re all thoroughly British (I guess except for Terry and Gay), and many grew up steeped in the tradition. I’m sure there are many who would scoff at the sense that they’re authentic, though, with electric guitars, basses, and mandolins, and a trap set for most of their incarnations. OTOH, there are lots of groups who sound a lot more traditional that are American for the most part.

As Duke Ellington said, “If it sounds good it IS good.”

10

that’s a question worth pondering but i like james peeples advice, you got your man conal offering the real deal to anyone who wants it.
it’s an incredible deal, i mean i had to travel all over the place to get snippets from various players and can say without hesitation that you’ll come to understand authentic trad fluteplaying from his tutoring. and no i have no affiliation at all to scoiltrad or conal.

listen to as many players as you can. the flute obsession cd’s would be great for it’s sampling of many fine exponents as well.

11

Many many, many years ago when I was singing and playing on stage it was the song that was important to me. Whether or not it said what was in my heart better then I could. Whether it could project an emotion I had to get out or if it was just something I wanted to give to everyone. There was no rule, implicit or implyed, by any singer I knew limiting the venue. Of course back then music was a way to deal with reality without killing someone also. If someone wrote a tune that said what I wanted to say, whether it was Suix or Irish, or french or african made no difference to me. Irish trad as well as other more ancient music moves me in a very primordial way. If I ever get to where I can play the flute compatently and convey that feeling to others I dont think I will be worried about its authenticity. Now if you play as a culturalantrapologicalist then I think you would have to concider authenticity. Other wise as Chas said "it is folk music" music of the people. By the way chas I halled around for years a Steeleye Span album which I never got tired of listening to. I wish I still had it. I used to have to explain every time I played it to someone that it wasnt Steele Dan or what ever :smiley:

Tom

12

I can’t say that I’m years ahead of where I’d be otherwise, but Scoiltrad was/is money well spent to me. I really feel like I’m learning to feel the music, and maybe someday I’ll be able to get away from the dots. Hopefully. But that’s funny too, because since starting the beginner’s course I’ve actually improved a lot in my ability to read music…

A little closer to topic… What is tradition? (I can’t help but hear ‘If I were a rich man’ in my head right now… :slight_smile: ) Maybe I’m taking the wrong approach or have the wrong idea but I think the actual tradition is getting together and playing music that people enjoy: Something they’ll tap their foot to, or dance. Don’t we just happen to play a particular flavor? (I will indulge myself saying ‘we’ even though I’m a beginner)

Wasn’t it tradition to take what was available and make music? I might be wrong but I think spoons started out as a utensil. maybe not. :stuck_out_tongue:

Respect the past, but live today. If we only repeat the past then isn’t it the music already dead. Music lives and grows doesn’t it?

So Enjoy. Make music. And most importantly have fun. Course my Wife always tells me I’m full of it, so maybe she’s right… :laughing:

Tony

13

I think as long as you try your best and be honest about your connection with the culture, you shouldn’t have to worry. Do what your comfortable with. Honesty and thoroughness will not lead you astray.

If you want to present a culture that you are not a part of you have to try and acculturate yourself as much as you can when you get the time. Listen, read, watch, travel, and meet… rinse and repeat.

The main idea with learning a culture is accomodating the culture, not assimilating. Stretch your mind to fit the culture, not compress the culture to fit your mind.

Stay within your circle of knowledge when presenting. If there’s something outside that circle you want to try, then learn as much about it as you can before presenting.

When it comes to the music, Scoiltrad is an excellent resource for us isolated folk (and probably for those in the thick of some of North America’s Irish centers). Listen listen listen.

And have fun.

Cheers,
Aaron

14

I’ve played with quite a few Japanese Bluegrass musicians whose English wasn’t flawless, but they often did an otherwise great job of singing it. I also learned a lot of mandolin from a couple of them.

Virtually every university in Japan seems to have at least one Bluegrass band–which is sadly not true of the United States. I thought that it was a wonderful thing. It sure made my 7.5 years over there more interesting.

Here’s me (the tall one), Jim Bryan (of West Virginia), and Masuo Sasabe (with the mandolin) at the 1978 Spring Wind Bluegrass Festival in Yokohama. I’m pretty sure we were singing “Mother’s Not Dead, She’s Only Sleeping”. There are another guitar, a banjo, a bass, and a fiddle somewhere in the background–and another dozen or so bands waiting offstage.

15

Like most of the people answering, and me earlier, I’m not going to give you the answer you want, but that’s because I don’t think that anyone can give you that and remain honest. So, I’m going to give you the answer I think you need. (Please don’t take that the wrong way, it’s still only my opinion and I’m not being arrogant. Absolutely nobody is an expert in these matters.)

My first thought is that you won’t make any progress in the direction I think you want to go until you lighten up a bit. I’ll explain why I think this as I go. Your questions strike me not so much as wooly as simply inappropriately overanxious.

Authenticity is a kind of a fidelity. There are at least two kinds. First, you can be true to yourself. A lot of us are urging this, but this seems to be what you want only sometimes, but not others. You define your own route, accept certain standards of success, and embark on your journey.

The other kind of authenticity is being an accepted member of a social group. Fidelity here is to the norms of that group, but don’t expect anyone to tell you what they are since, when it comes to musical traditions in particular, one of the rites of passage is to know that without being told. In many clubs, the members value exclusivity and they certainly won’t be making it easy for you.

Now, part of the problem is that there isn’t one ITM community but several, each with their own view as to what are the paradigm cases of perfection and how far you can deviate and still be a member. You will never really be an insider in more than one of these groups, although you might be a respected outsider in several and an insider in one. If you want to be a member of all such groups, forget it. My guess is that part of your anxiety springs from getting conflicting views from members of different groups.

Don’t expect people to be really open about this stuff and don’t expect people to even say which group they belong to. You can tell, if at all, only by observing who says similar things to who and who admires the same things. None of this is formalised. The factions don’t have names, except when another faction introduces a term to sneer. A lot of this is good natured. Some of it isn’t.

Group identity isn’t something you decide on; it’s something the group decides on. When a group accepts you as a member, you are, and in their sense of the term, you are authentic, unless you’re successfully faking which can be done. Now here’s why I suggested you lighten up. First, the more anxious you are the more likely you are to find the mysteries of group identity terminally confusing since you will take to heart every snub and take away undue expectations from every bit of acceptance. Taking these things with a grain of salt makes working out what’s what quicker. Second, non group has a monopoly on authenticity so if you keep searching for the group that does you’ll get nowhere. Third, overanxiety reeks of trying too hard and immediately makes you an outsider. Insiders in each group walk the walk effortlessly; that’s part of what makes them insiders.

That’s why so many of us keep suggesting that you be true to yourself. That will almost certainly mean settling in to one group or another, but if you set yourself goals for playing, if you socialise with thosee who seem to have similar goals, and if you go about meeting them in a relaxed way you’ll fall in with your group sooner rather than later.

I hope that helps.

16

I agree with a lot of what other people have said above. You’re worrying about nothing. If you’re there to play the music, then do that. You’re not making any claim about any other aspect of the culture or of your heritage/upbringing, and nobody should expect you to. I’m of mostly German ancestry, but I play some Irish music and do a lot of Scottish country dancing. I don’t see why that’s a problem, because I’m not pretending to be Irish or Scottish. I just enjoy the music and the dancing. You don’t have to extend that to all aspects of the culture to make it “OK” to play the music. Sure, growing up in Ireland helps in understanding the music and therefore playing it better, but that doesn’t by any stretch mean that other people should stay away from that music because they’re frauds.

Your comment about not singing songs that aren’t from your own personal heritage made me think of the classical world. Classical musicians in the US are constantly playing things written by German, Austrian, and Italian composers, but nobody thinks there’s anything wrong with that. People sing Beethoven’s Ode to Joy in German even if they don’t speak the language. Lots of operas are written in Italian or German, and nobody thinks it’s wrong for an American to sing them.

There’s my 2 cents. I guess I’m broke now.

Steven

17

I wonder what John J. Kimmell would have thought of this thread? ( :wink: ).

18

probably like myself, that there are loads of different sides to the story. :smiley:

19

:smiley:

20

I think a lot of good advice has been given here already. I especially like what was said about being true to oneself, also about respect.

Just think what a poor operatic tradition we would have if people of African or Asian descent had refrained from singing Verdi, et al!

Enjoy your music and live honestly–don’t be discouraged by people who would like to shut you out for not being their favorite flavor…