this is my first post here. I’ve been a lurker for a while, but now is the time to finally ask a question.
I’m a beginner. I have a polymer keyless M&E with which I can produce a fairly decent sound and play along some tunes, not with the quality I would like, but I’m working hard and I’m not in a hurry!
However I would like to upgrade my flute because some tunes in the session I go I simply can’t reach there. Tunes in A, F or D minor are near impossible for me. So I’m thinking of doing an upgrade so that I can start practice with keys and get a more flexible chromatic instrument.
But, I would like to ask some advice on this matter. Prices vary widely and I simply do not know would be the best choice. Also, as I live in mainland Europe I do not have access to hearing lots of instruments.
Anyhow,I will try to put down some of my questions:
Should I go for a wooden instrument or are polymer instruments enough at my stage?
Do any of you have any experience with keyed M&E blackwood? How do they compare to more expensive instruments like the Watson or Olwell?
What makers do you suggest on the price range of the M&E 6 keyed? Or should I really bite the bullet and aim directly to a “better” but certainly more expensive instrument? (I kind of like the Watson and there are lot of good references)
I tried to search the forum looking for answers to these questions but it’s quite difficult. If some of you can provide links where these questions have been asked and answered I would be happy!
hmm… i think i’m going to duck some of the questions you asked; just so you know, there are sort of politically hot questions that are better not asked on a public board like this. For example, is a Watson better than a blackwood M&E is a question that can cause a lot of problems; if someone says yes, then somebody with a blackwood M&E will post a contrary opinion. so maybe keep that in mind; choice of flute is a very personal thing for lots of people, and what works for one person might not work for another.
that said, if you like the Watson and can afford it, get it. you’ll be happy.
if you want to get buy on something cheaper, a 6-key M&E is an option. you might also consider buying an F flute. you’re only one sharp away from playing in A with your D flute, and if you got an F that would cover you for F and D minor. Mr. Cronnolly makes a polymer F (i prefer the ebonite; you can see a video of Mr. Eskin playing one here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ0LMVTawX8)
Oh well, I think we can safetly say that Watson flutes are objectively better than M&E.
Quality comparison between high end flutes is more difficult (M&E are more in the medium end, although I haven’t tried the wooden version).
It’s great that you want a keyed flute, just keep in mind that most of D minor(/dorian) tunes go below low D and that you’ll have to do some octave jumping, if you don’t buy an 8 keyed flute.
Anyway, 1700 euros is a very reasonable price for a six keyed flute, I’d go for it. Or you could try your luck with an antique, usually much cheaper unless you go for an original Rudall but, again, you gotta be lucky, and antiques are usually less easy to blow and this can be frustrating at the beginning (but then they turn up to be beautiful instruments).
Just another option you may think of, an E bamboo (or keyless wooden flute or Tipple) will give you your A tunes played in G fingering and a C flute is handy for playing in Dminor and F often less work than doing the same on a D keyed flute. Or whistles alternatively. I use both approaches. I am learning Black Pat’s, a tune played in F, this week and learned it in G to play with G versions which transfers over to playing it in F on my C flute and am learning it with the keys on my D flute as an exercise and technical challenge to myself and for different sound. Another example is the Contradiction a tune I always found relatively hard in A on a D flute but taking it down to G fingering on an E flute has made it not much more difficult than anything else.The last M and E I tried was an 8 key in ploymer (or ebonite?). It was a decent flute did the job well for the price. If your patient a good antique will come up for not much more than an M and E. Whatever happened to that Potter flute? It looked like a real good price for an antique keyed flute and reportedly played at 440.
Whatever happened to that Potter flute? It looked like a real good price for an antique keyed flute and reportedly played at 440.
Two Potters were around in the last 2 months, one with 6 keys with short foot, the other one 6 keys again but with long keyed foot and 4 keys on the body (C and long F missing). I bought the first one and I’m extremely pleased with it
I would like to upgrade my flute because some tunes in the session I go I simply can’t reach there. Tunes in A, F or D minor are near impossible for me.
Nothing at all against buying that keyed flute, great idea if you fancy it, but would you be able to say a bit more about where you are, your session and the tunes?
Do you hear a lot of regular tunes in F and D minor? Are they mainly played on fiddle? Are other people changing instruments to play them (i.e. are we talking about sessions led by ‘C’ concertinas/boxes/pipes etc playing tunes that are ‘normally’ assumed to be in G and Em?). If so, maybe just get yourself a keyless C flute/whistle, learn the tunes the ‘D’ way and swap flutes around in the session (you’ll need a few small changes to some tunes but you’d pick them up).
Common fiddle tunes in ‘A’ can be tricky but should be quite manageable on your keyless D flute by half-holing (or just bluffing) the occasional G#.
PS. might say something different if you’re in an area with more traditional tunes genuinely in F and Dminor (Paddy Carty teritory?).
Thanks for the help so far! Never considered having a F or E flute. That is really something to think about. Please keep the advices coming. Fresh perspectives are really important.
In the mean time I would like to hear if there is any hands on experience with M&E keyed flutes? (they are at a sale now and could be really worth it, for a tight budget like mine)
For Mark: I’m in the last corner of Europe, Portugal! Only one Irish Session here!
it would still be interesting to know which Irish tunes you’re hearing regularly at sessions in F and D minor, and whether they are being played on ‘C’ instruments.
As for tune names, that is difficult. I’m still struggling to memorize the tunes I can play
But the melody is mostly covered by a concertina (C/G - i guess), a violin and occasionally a bouzuki
(The person that plays the concertina also plays the tin whistle, for the tunes in D and G and related modes
The 6-key Potter (4 keys on the body) is still for sale, but the barrel crack reopened, so it is currently back with Jon Cornia. Let me know if you are still interested via PM.
I am a fan of short footed, 6-key antique flutes and am only an intermediate level player at best, so take what follows with that in mind.
The early M&E keyless I had as a first conical flute was a brick, and I can’t imagine what a keyed polymer flute from the factory would feel like, but doubt it would be an improvement. Don’t know if Michael makes one in ebonite, but you may want to go that way if you can.
I recently took a flute class with a young girl who had an 8 key M&E. She got decent volume and tone out of the instrument and was studying to go off to Ireland to compete in the under 12 age group for flute after her success in the states in similar competitions, so I guess objectively ostensibly more knowlegable folks than I thought it sounded good also. I personally find the chromed post mounted keys and Bohm style foot joint of the M&E unaesthetic, but they seem to work well enough, so should be good for playing the tunes you are looking to pickup.
M&E flutes do not typically hold their value as well as flutes from other manufacturers, but if it is a really good deal…
If you are contemplating an antique, I do have a 6-key short foot Metzler that I have restored that I am planning on putting back up for sale once I get a chance to shoot better pictures. It is a great flute, and looks much better than as featured here: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/fs-metzler-6-key-cocus-flute/73057/1 I just haven’t been playing it much since I restored my 6-key Hall and Sons. This is the real deal, though, and as an antique has all the typical compromises, and advantages, that come with the territory. You would still have to “fold” some tunes, as unlike an 8-key the flute doesn’t go below D, but it is fully chromatic with medium to large size toneholes and a generous embochure. Needless to say please PM with any interest.
Or a C whistle. REgardless, you’ll have to do something while you wait.
Me, I’m a spud: if given a choice between playing a Dm tune on my 6-key Olwell or my Delrin C flute (or even a C whistle), I’ll go for the C instrument, thanks.
BTW, Dave Copley just started making E flutes. The one I heard is a dandy.
hey, this thread really took off. these are all great comments.
OP, there was a thread recently where someone reviewed an M&E keyed flute. if you search for it you should find it; they commented that the keys needed some work and that they payed someone to fix up the keys, and then were very happy with it.
Mr. Cronnolly does make 6- and 8-keyed versions of his ebonite flute; last i heard he had one left in stock, and was eventually planning to make more.
i play a keyless ebonite M&E as my main flute; i love the tone i get from it–i prefer it to any of the several of the delrin flutes available from more usually respected makers, and often even to much more expensive blackwood flutes. i don’t know for sure if it’s the ebonite or the fully-lined head, or some combination of both, but it sounds great to me. (if you search for ebonite i think you’ll find a lot more on that topic : )
fyi, i also have a “german” 10-key flute that i bought on ebay for less than $100 and had Jon C fix for me (i posted pictures recently if you want to see it) so that the total cost was still less than $300. you have to be careful though, antiques as mentioned have caveats.
i guess somebody should also mention if you want to just cover as many keys (F, C, etc) as possible as cheaply as possible, Tipples are an option. i just bought an Eb off this board with the lip plate and wedge, and it’s a great flute–and i got for $50.
Just stay far away from the $35 molded ebonite flutes produced in India that appear to be modeled on early 20th century German flutes. I’ve got one and they are only useful for wall art. (See sticky on e-bay flutes for more info)
By all accounts Eric got very lucky on the German flute he picked up. He got it initially for less than they usually sell for, Jon’s repairs appear to be quite reasonably priced, and the particular flute was one of the “good ones”. If you check the board you will find plenty of reports of unlabeled German flutes of the same era being only good for lamp construction. I guess there have to be a bunch of good ones out there as well, after all they were used as orchestral standards for a time, weren’t they? For example, typically an actual Meyer is thought of as worth a trial as opposed to a nach-Meyer or unlabeled, but you would have to hear from someone with more experience than I have with antiques to know for sure.
that’s true, Jon did a great job and didn’t charge much; he also told me that he thought mine was made by Lyon Healy in Chicago, who i guess was a decent maker.
i had no clue what i was doing; i totally just got lucky, so i wouldn’t expect the same results. i just meant that there are possibilities.
Thanks for the answers so far. Lots of things to think about, but one thing that stands out is that I’m not going to commit myself to a new purchase soon (at least of a new D flute). I have several other options to consider
One thing is certain, I’ll not go back to the whistle, whatever its pitch. The flute is my instrument and my passion, and I do not want to spend any more time on the whistle!
I may, nonetheless invest on an F or E flute, this might be a real possibility, although there are not many possibilities at reasonable prices…
Another possibility that has been mentioned is using an old instrument. Well, I have not mentioned it yet, but I have one (it was a gift form an older family member), although, I’m not wholly at ease with it. It’s a late 1800 Jerome Thibouville Lamy in D made in blackwood with a tuning slide. It is an unusual flute as it is has only 5 keys and they are not standard. Keys present are Eb, C, Bb, G# and a sort of a short “F key”. This is in fact my main concern with this flute. Typical F# fingering for a D flute produces in this flute something between F and F# and I have to use the “F” key to produce an F sharp, the F is produced also with the key on, but changing the 3rd finger. This is unusual and I don not know if it’s worth the time I will invest in mastering this fingering.
This flute, despite not being played for about 80-90 years is in very good condition with no leaks. It has small holes and the embouchure is more difficult than my M&E, but I can play a tune with it (if I do not mind about the hopelessly out of tune unkeyed F#).
So what do you think? Should I invest my time on this older flute or forget about it? I can post pictures, if you like
This is in fact my main concern with this flute. Typical F# fingering for a D flute produces in this flute something between F and F# and I have to use the “F” key to produce an F sharp, the F is produced also with the key on, but changing the 3rd finger.
When you say ‘typical F# fingering’ do you mean like this…? XXX XOO
It’s quite normal to need some ‘venting’ of another key to help F# be in tune on those flutes. Usually, it’s the Eb key. If you search the forum for venting then you should find some contributions (e.g. from Jemtheflute)
If the flute plays in tune and you can improve your embouchure why not carry on with it for a while and it will be more use to you than a flute in E or F. Sounds like a flute in C would be much more useful to you for your concertina session - you can even get a D and C flute combination, but it may cost you money.
The flute is my instrument and my passion, and I do not want to spend any more time on the whistle!
Just a personal opinion but that would be sad. If you have limited budget then I’d still go for a nice flute in D and a C whistle for those concertina tunes.
Additionally, there’s no reason to ignore the whistle. Once you have the flute playing down, the whistle is actually fairly easy. I sometimes switch to the high-D whistle if someone else is already playing in the flute range (i.e. another flute or a low whistle). What I don’t do any more is the low-D whistle… I’ve owned 4 or 5 of them and keep getting rid of them ‘cause I find the flute is usually my preference when the whistle might be played (hmmmm - does that make sense?). I really doubt that I’ll get another low-D whistle. Oh yeah, I find the “stretch” on a low-D a bit cumbersome. I can play with pipers’, but don’t on the flute and thus don’t want to switch for the whistle. That’s just me, though. Kevin Crawford is a perfect example of why you might actually want both whistle and flute.
I also agree that you should give your antique a little more play time - it’s really rewarding. Oh yeah - the 5-key arrangement you mention is not really that unusual.
I have a Thibouville in cocus. Its a real looker and I had Dave Copley make me a new headjoint in mopane that has really improved the flute’s performance. Still the tone is kind of sweet and thin. Nice around the house, nice to have, but not one I’d spend a lot of time practising new fingering on. I had the F# sharpened. Many would frown on that and I understand the arguments against altering an old flute. May be ducking the flute police from now on, but it made sense to me on this flute in this case.
