Advice on chromatic flute: keyed simple system vs. keyless plus Boehm

Irish Flute
1

I’m looking for advice to see if my “flute roadmap” makes sense.

I’m two months into my flute journey and enjoying it immensely, coming from whistle and melodica, and piano.

I currently play a 3D printed irish flute (i.e. keyless 19th C simple system) as well as a number of 6-hole bamboo flutes I’ve made myself, but I plan to upgrade to a keyless Delrin Copley as my main ITM flute once I have some funds.

I only play trad by myself but I also occasionally play with other musicians in other genres using my melodica.

My main concern is this: I love the flute, I love how it sounds and I want to play flute with others in other genres (like jazz, pop, or reggae) fluidly without having to scramble for the right key flute or whistle I have lying around or fumble with awkward half holing and cross fingering.

So my options are

A) to save up for a keyed irish flute, which could run me around $1300 or more even used, or B) get a keyless Copley ($~500) then get a student Boehm flute for around ($~500), then maybe in the far future get a keyed 19c flute

Option A is more expensive initially but not by much, though I doubt a keyed irish flute would be good to use to play with others.

Option B will require me to learn Boehm fingering, but I think I can manage. Anyone who has experienced going from simple system to Boehm?

So currently I’m going with Option B as my plan, but open to hear your opinions.

Thank you

2

I would probably agree that option B is correct. If you look at a boehm flute chart you’ll see that the only “core” note that has a different fingering is F#. Otherwise it’s just keys outside D and G to get used to and that is very doable. Other genres also tend to want you to play in the third octave more than ITM, and a boehm flute is just better at that than a simple system flute.

So full steam ahead, I’d say :grin:

1 Like
3

Yeah, seems like Option B would be better. Then you have two flutes that can cover any genre you want. Plus, you can always sell your Copley keyless (they sell like hot cakes) when you decide to get a keyed one.

You can certainly play jazz on a keyed Irish flute, but the instrument isn’t anywhere near as optimized for that as the Boehm flute is.

You can also play trad on a Boehm flute, of course, but a lot of people find that aesthetically displeasing for whatever reason. :stuck_out_tongue: (Plus, it’s difficult to get it to sound quite like an Irish flute).

1 Like
4

Good point! Thank you

5

I will give the opposite advice and say get a keyed Irish flute. I think you will develop better focusing on one flute than switching back and forth between two flutes. The Irish flute is simply the original flute people played what we now call classical music on. I’ve played jazz, blues, baroque, classical and rock on my keyed Copley…no problem.

Or, just get a silver flute and get really good on that. Along with the fnat vs fsharp key difference, you blow a bit differently, your fingers will fall on the keys differently, etc.

Sticking with one instrument, in my experience, will improve your playing more quickly.

Eric

3 Likes
7

Thanks for offering another perspective Eric. That gives me something to think about.

8

If you need a chromatic flute, then you should take the plunge and get keys, Boehm or Simple-System. You can get a six-key, antique starting in the low $1,xxx’s. If that’s where you are headed, then skip the keyless. Keyless helps you develop embouchure, which is important, but finger habits for keyed, chromatic flute playing should be developed from the start. Yeah, you can change, but the straighter road is by starting in the right direction.

That said, there is a Copley delrin on eBay right now. They come well-recommended by just about everyon who has tried them.

1 Like
9

@tstermitz I actually already have a bunch of keyless flutes (e.g. a 3D printed conical D + a PVC E flat that I made myself) which are satisfying enough to play though of course the tone is different from keyless ones from quality makers. So I might consider just going straight to keyed flutes and play what I have while I save up for it. Thanks.

20250916_110741
20250916_1107411920×2560 1020 KB

10

Also, if you want to avoid the antique flute for any reason, M&E flutes tend to get good reviews, and they have a 6-key model. I personally own an 8-key Galeon flute, and I love it a lot. Brand new they are about $900, which is well within your budget!

1 Like
11

The 8-key galeon is the 3D printed one, right? Good to hear you’re loving it. I also saw Hatao play on Youtube playing it though I would prefer it were black.

12

Yes, that’s the one. I’ve thought about emailing him and asking if he’ll make a model in black someday, but I haven’t yet. You might just want to ask, though! They’re printed from resin, which can be dyed easily enough when printing, so he might be willing to offer one in the future.

1 Like
13

My thoughts as a relatively new Irish Flute player is to learn on an Irish simple system flute (ensure you have one that is enjoyable to play - I have a Damian Thompson Delrin Student Flute which is excellent). As soon as you are sure that you want to invest in a keyed flute, go for it (I am luckily on Damian’s now closed waiting list for a 6 key flute). This way, your fingers and embouchure dont get confused by having both Irish and Boehm flutes and should you want to play Jazz or other music types, your keyed Irish Flute will work fine and give the advantage, being open holed, of manipulating notes in a way not possible with most Boehm style flutes (could be great for Jazz). At my age, anything to keep it as simple (and therefore as enjoyable) as possible is a good thing and as there can be a world of difference between a well made flute and a poor quality flute, buying one great flute is likely to be better than two average ones. I have chosen to go down the Delrin route rather than wood as I travel a lot in Europe in a motorhome and fear that hear and humidity issues would quickly crack a wood flute and I just dont want the worry. If Harry Bradley, Michael Hurley and other great Flute players have a Damian Thompson Delrin Flute for travel, it will surely be just awesome for me!!

1 Like
14

Sorry to come late here. Just a simple point favouring option B: there are common jazz tunes in Db (Body and Soul) and Ab (It’s Only a Paper Moon). These keys are no harder to play in on a Boehm flute than is the key of C, but on a 6-key or 8-key simple system flute they are very awkward. To be honest, even C, F and Bb major are not all that much fun to play in on such a flute. In addition, the 3rd octave, which is bad enough on a Boehm flute, is even harder to play in on a simple system keyed flute. I love the sound of the pre-Boehm conical-bore wooden flute, but for jazz, it is just not the appropriate instrument. I assume this is true for popular music and reggae as well but I don’t know these genres. Chet

2 Likes
15

I think it’s all about getting use to an instrument. It’s only awkward if you don’t practice it on a regular bases, and learn your instrument. In the nineteenth century, the simple system was all there was and it was playing what ever was being composed. I don’t find playing in C, F, or Bb hard at all on my eight key Blackman from the 1830’s, but mentally, I don’t do four sharps or flats, or go above the high E, that’s on me, not the flute.

I inherited a silver Boehm flute, a Bb fife and a bunch of recorders from an uncle. I took lessons on the silver flute for about a year and then kinda lost interest. About ten years later a friend was playing Irish music and I got interested in playing again, but I found that I was much more comfortable playing the Keyless Bb fife than the silver flute. The keys put a distance between the body of the flute and my fingers, the tactile feel was so very different.

There was a Irish session class in town at the time, and my wife didn’t like the higher Bb fife, so I order a 6 key Irish flute and started the session class. Since then, I play every week, it’s been 22 years.

The two instruments are very similar, but they are different. To my ear, there is a definitely a difference in sound and presence between the two. The rise of early music and Irish traditional music exposed people to the older instruments and what they brought to the music, this was often lost with the acceptance of the Boehm flute. I think that this is one reason you see the demand for baroque flutes and simple system flutes in the last 50 years, and people making a living making them. 50 years ago it was very hard to find a baroque or simple system flute. The only instruments that were available were silver Boehm flutes. So, by default this was the standard. Many of the drawbacks of the older simple system flutes; tuning, finger spacing, etc., have been addressed by modern makers and are no longer an issue.

For me playing a simple system flute is much more satisfying then playing my silver flute. With this discussion I pulled out my silver flute. It felt really kludgy in my hands. Rolling that F#, doing taps and cuts not to mention bending notes, the keys just seemed awkward, particularly the Bb and C keys, it hurt my arthritic thumb.

I don’t know if one would call this Jazz, but these players might inspire you, they are all on Youtube.

Jean-Luc Thomas

Jean-Michel Viellon

Erwan HAMON

Sylvain BAROU

Erwan Menguy

Calum Stewart

2 Likes
16

I had a similar thought at first, but really it is only a perception thing. The functionality will be the same if it is pink or purple or black. I am sure there was a reason for the color choice but never asked anyone.

17

If your goal is modern music like jazz, then you’re going to need a modern Boehm flute. Conical flutes aren’t going to give you the full range of notes required (aka B3 to C7), and I doubt an Irish keyed flute is going to give you access to all the alternative fingerings required for trills and fast passages. Modern flutes are also built for modern tuning. Any time you save not learning a few different fingerings is going to be lost working on your embouchure to get a conical bore flute in tune through its octaves.

Getting a silver flute to sound “wooden” is easy. If you don’t want to wait to learn how with your embouchure, just get a wooden head joint. I had my Irish flute head joint refitted to fit on my Boehm.

1 Like
18

I’ve finally gotten to where I’m kind of OK on the flute, playing Irish trad mostly on a keyless flute. I have a decent keyed flute but it’s not as good as my Ellis ebonite flute of my Olwell keyless. My first love is jazz, but I’m 66 and it’s very likely that by the time I could have a new keyed flute made I’ll be too old to play, or possibly dead.

You can get a really nice Boehm flute for very little money, compared to an “irish” keyed flute. So just this morning I was trying to play Darby the Driver on a old used Boehm flute we have sitting around the house.

It just doesn’t feel the same, is the thing

1 Like