Hi all. I have a sweetheart keyless flute. It is one of the older models. I had a new resonance model, but there was a problem with the laminate material and it cracked, so I got a wood flute instead. It was different, but I thing, equally as nice. Anyway…I got frustrated with not being able to play in D minor and C, so I got a c folk fife. Also a sweetheart and one of the older models. With the two of these I can play in most keys now. But, I still have been wondering if I should get a keyed flute eventually. I might (probably) be a little obsessive though. My wife says you have to be a little obsessive to play music, and I think she is righ, or you probably would never get around to practicing…
I was looking at the M and E Rudall and rose 6 or 8 key polymer flute. How are they? I haven’t seen a whole lot of reviews in past posts. What I am really wondering, is there any one out there who has played both the Sweetheart flutes and the M&E flutes that could tell me how they compare as far as tone and volume, playability, etc. is concerned. Thanks a lot.
I haven’t played a Sweetheart, but I’ve played a couple of M&E’s and quite a few other flutes, including some real top notch ones. And I can without a doubt tell you that, for a modern made keyed flute if you are on a budget, the M&E is unbeatable. The only other way you could get a keyed flute for that kind of money is if you go for an antique (in which case you might hit gold and have a real beauty, but you might as well get something unplayable).
I play a 5-keyed M&E as a backup flute, and it’s got a rich sound, easy to play, plenty of honk and loudness. You won’t get dissapointed in that regard. But as you can imagine, you always get what you pay for in one way or another… The M&E plays like some of the best of them, but it is going to be quite heavy, ugly and with less than refined keywork. It’s all very functional, but it is not pretty. If you can live with that (and there’s no reason why you shouldn’t IMO), if you are looking to have a flute which plays great for a ridiculously low price, get the M&E. An 8-keyed Blackwood M&E is currenty 850 Euro.
And just to let you know, I’m not in anyway affiliated with M&E flutes. I’m just a happy customer who occationally enjoys one or two drams of
whisky
Keyed wooden flutes by Gilles Lehart are very cheap (although it got a bit more expensive recently). Its 630 euros for a keyless and you add 95 euros for each key you add (max 6 keys).
I’m buying a 4 keyed flute from him…
I used to own a Sweetheart laminate in D and liked it a lot, but needed to sell it to buy a McGee GLP. I currently own two M&Es - the keyless polymer (an older one) and a new 8-key blackwood. Everything the above poster said about the 8-key is true, but I like the heftiness and my keys, while utilitarian, are quite functional and look fine. No doubt that the M&E is the best deal out there - it plays nearly as well as my GLP (yes, nearly), but has more or a “bite” - probably because of the lined headjoint. The polymer version si essentially identical to the keyed version, but a little quieter in my hands. The Sweetheart is a super flute to learn on and use as a backup or a take-anywhere flute as its tone and volume are as good as any.
BTW, Michael and Evelyn gave me a super price on the keyed flute - talk to them and you might get a surprise.
I guess I would recommend a keyed flute at your point now… People say that you should wait until you’re good to get a keyed beast, but, guess what, you don’t have to USE the keys if you don’t want to and you can use them in the future. To be honest, I’m still getting used to mine and only use the C-nat, F-nat, G#, and D# keys very much. I find the Bb key hard to manage and the lower keys, C and C# just aren’t needed much. The long-F key is useful for going down the scale, but I haven’t got that imprinted in my fingers yet.
Feel free to PM if you have more questions…
Pat
What so you want keys for? (sincere question)
Most people with keys aren’t using them to play in odd keys ,
but to play accidentals in standard keys more easily.
These are available by half-holing and cross fingering too.
Keys aren’t used much though they’re beautiful and nice
to have.
You can play in different keys by buying flutes in different keys.
The Sweetheart flutes in A, G, etc are very nice flutes.
And they are reasonably priced too.
Also why do you want delrin? Blackwood is tough and easy to care for
and, IMO and that of many, sounds even better.
If I may express an opinion, it’s that you wait and get to know wooden flutes
better before going for keys. What you find yourself wanting a year from now
may be very different from what you are considering today.
Personally (playing both keyed and unkeyed flutes) I would much rather have
a really good keyless flute than a not so good keyed one. A good wooden keyless
flute can sound extraordinarily beautiful, one of the most beautiful sounds in the
world, and have good volume and be a delight to play. The trajectory for
many of us has been to next go for a good keyless flute, possibly from a maker
who will retrofitt for keys. Or something good that you will be able to sell one day
to fund a keyed flute. You may find yourself regretting that you spent money on
a less good keyed flute that you could have spent on a good keyless.
You may also find that you don’t much use the keys.
My two cents is that perhaps you are getting a bit ahead of yourself.
There may be better ways to spend this money. Not that a (high quality) keyed flute
isn’t in your future.
Just want to add as a PS,
that if you really want to play in lots of keys on one flute,
a Boehm ‘silver’-flute is a good and relatively
inexpensive option, especially if ITM isn’t
your only interest. I believe Doc Jones
has one on his site for a couple of hundred
dollars, for instance.
Follow-up to above…
Cross-fingering is fine, but you never get the clarity of tone that you get with keys. On my keyed M&E I sometimes use the key and sometimes not - the keyed version is obviously better. Also, I have never played an Irish flute in D that could get a good half-holed F-nat.
Pat
Half-holing doesn’t work as well on flute as it does on whistle; at the best of times, you get a note that sounds pretty “iffy.”
Now if you’re smoking along in a reel and you won’t be sounding that note but for a fraction of a second, sure, it’ll sort-of work.
If you really want a chromatic flute that can play every note, the only way to get it is to get and learn to use the keys. (Or get a Boehm-system flute, if you want to go that route.)
–James
Jim- Have you played an M&E flute? I’m saying (and I do mean it) that this person can get a fully keyed Blackwood M&E for the same price or less than a keyless flute by Hammy, McGee, Murray, Olwell and so on, and that this M&E will be fully comarable to those flutes in terms of playability and sound. I’m not saying it’s the best there is (there’s a reason why people spend so much on the top notch flutes after all), but I am saying that it is fully comparable.
Now, why would he get a keyless flute from a top maker for the same or more money when he clearly needs the keys? I’d say that would be getting way ahead of himself…
No matter what he gets, I can see no reason why one shouldn’t be able to enjoy a dram or two of
whisky
Permit me to disagree. I get strong and workable notes for most of the half-holed notes.
I prefer a half-holed Bb, for instance, to a key, because I’m better able to shade the note.
Eb is still a bit hit and miss, though it’s OK at speed. The others I’ve got.
I don’t much play those notes, as they don’t come up so much in ITM,
but I don’t need keys. That doesn’t mean I don’t like keys or that I find them of no help.
But I don’t much miss them either.
By the way, I’ve added a C natural thumbhole to some keyless flutes
and this really is working out well. Does what a C natural key does
but more easily, IMO. And it costs 25 bucks.
My question to Chayim, remember, was why he wanted a keyed flute.
We don’t have that info. There may be people who need one right away,
who want a chromatic flute that can play every note right away,
but we can’t yet assume he’s one of them. I don’t think there’s
a need for most newbies to rush into keys, especially when
we don’t know what they’re after.
But that’s just my opinion, of course. It seemed sensible to add it to
the mix and also to ask some relevant questions.
Yes, I’ve played M@E flutes, but not enough to have an educated opinion.
I was not much impressed with them personally. I’ve played the delrin keyless
flutes, both the old ones and the newer Rudall. I liked better the Seery delrin
and better still my blackwood Copley. A friend bought one used
an MandE keyed flute in blackwood. It really was clunky in its appearance,
including the keys,
and the headjoint cracked through the embouchure hole soon after he
bought it. He’s never played it again. I trust this is the exception that
proves the rule.
But it’s entirely consistent with my experience that these flutes are comparable well enough
with the best. Doubtless you know more about them than I do.
I don’t think we know that Chayim ‘clearly needs the keys.’
That’s why I asked him why he wants them. I don’t think
we have that information. It’s a sensible question, imo, not
a bad place to begin.
He wants to be able to play in different keys, and I’m guessing (although it’s not clear from the text) also to be able to play the accidentals in the standard keys.
He also wants a flute which plays well, and my opinion is that he probably wouldn’t “need” a “better” flute than the M&E at this point if I may boldly say so. There are better flutes, but the differences are very slim and probably not something that most amateures could draw advantage of. It’s my opinion that an M&E is as good a flute as most of us will ever need, and there’s no reason for anyone to doubt it’s capabilities.
Since he asked for our opinions on the M&E I’m guessing he doesn’t want to spend more than necessary.
With that in mind do you think that it would be sensible to get a keyless flute from a top maker for the same money or more, where it would be very, very difficult to play the accidentals and in odd keys (most people, me included, are of the opinion that it is acctually very difficult.)?
And do you think it would be sensible to get a bunch of flutes in different keys for (probably) more money? That would make it possible to play the different keys, but it would still be very difficult to play the accidentals.
Keys is the way to go IMO.
Just my 2cl of
whisky
i 100% agree with everything what henke said.
i posses keyed m&e, keyed lehart flute and i used to have serry flute.
i prefer m&e over serry flute, although keys on m&e are far away from 1st class, but they are functional…
also, as lorenzo said lehart flutes are great value, i like only sam murray flutes more in context of contemporary rudall and rose type flutes…
marin
Hi, chayim,
I really like the older (thread wrapped tenon) Sweetheart flutes, good choice, especially for the money! I also like their newer Resonance flutes although they are a different breed of cat, technically a better flute, but not so wild and wooly! However, this is the first instance that I’ve heard of about any of the laminated Sweetheart flutes having any cracking troubles, not that it could be impossible, of course, but it’s just the first time I’ve heard about such a thing. BTW, I’d suggest sending that cracked laminate flute back to Sweetheart, along with a note explaining the circumstances, for perhaps not only could the Sweets appreciate knowing about such a thing, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they then helped you out in the matter. Ralph and his son Walt have been making flutes for many years, and their hearts really are in the right place.
Keyed flutes are a mixed blessing. For instance, if you simply need keys, for accidentals or whatever, and especially if you need a fully chromatic instrument, then a keyed flute makes sense. However, nothing beats the simplicity of a keyless flute, having no keys to develop any leaks. Now, if the music you’re playing doesn’t modulate or wander far from the tonic key of the flute, then, as others have suggested, it might be possible for you to get along with a small collection of relatively inexpensive keyless flutes, in different tonic keys, where some accidentals could then successfully be “fudged” by means of cross-fingering, or half-holing, etc.
All in all, I’d suggest that you first get comfortable with a keyless flute, at least until you really have a need for any keys. Then, the lessons learned on a keyless flute will pay off, quite well.
I think that Chayim should get the keys if he (she?) wants them. There is absolutely nothing that prevents one from not using them if one is not that comfortable with them at the beginning. My first “serious” flute was an eight-keyer and I’m glad that I started learning the keys early. Playing dance tunes in F major or C major isn’t much of a problem, I even need the keys in a big part of my band’s programme (our Amaj-Dmin-Gmix set rocks…my fingers!). Half-holing and cross-fingering may be ok, but it is a compromise on the big-holed flutes (or simply doesn’t work, as on my Pratten for example) and is simply not desireable in a session setting IMHO. I heard about a guy who played Splendid Isolation on a keyless flute at session speed…those talented youngsters… But anyway, if Chayim can and wants to afford the keys, he/she should do it, and the M&E would be a great deal, as the Lehart would.
And by the way, to assume that somebody doesn’t need the keys for playing ITM is rubbish. I need and use them all the time since I don’t want to stop playing as soon as some funny fiddler starts to bang off with his Amaj/Gmin fiddle tunes or any non-fluter/-piper starts something in Dmin, Amaj, Gmin, or whatever. If you feel you don’t need the keys, that’s fine. But don’t assume from your point of view that others don’t need them as well!
Best,
Gabriel
Cork wrote
I really like the older (thread wrapped tenon) Sweetheart flutes, good choice, especially for the money! I also like their newer Resonance flutes although they are a different breed of cat, technically a better flute, but not so wild and wooly! However, this is the first instance that I’ve heard of about any of the laminated Sweetheart flutes having any cracking troubles, not that it could be impossible, of course, but it’s just the first time I’ve heard about such a thing. BTW, I’d suggest sending that cracked laminate flute back to Sweetheart, along with a note explaining the circumstances, for perhaps not only could the Sweets appreciate knowing about such a thing, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they then helped you out in the matter. Ralph and his son Walt have been making flutes for many years, and their hearts really are in the right place.
[quote][/quote]
I did give the laminate flute back to Ralph Sweet and he was very nice and gave the option to exchange it for something else. I got a keyless maple flute, the thread wrapped variety. I like it a lot. I like the Sweets a lot too. Ralph is a great person.
With my C fife i can play in a lot of those keys that I would need keys for. I play with people that play many tunes in D,G, Eminor, A mix, etc. But also play a fair amount of Dminor, Gminor, a natural,eg, catharsis, Julia Delaney, joys of quebec, devils dream, etc. So, I can get by using the fife for the od 25% of songs my keyless flute can’t play. I think it would be easier though, to not have to switch back and forth, flute to fife, fife to flute. But I am just wondering, as an option for the future, not right now. I really am happy with the flute I have, but might want to upgrade in a year or two. I was wondering about the volume and tone of the Mand E and also what people thought about the polymer compared to wood. Any difference? According to the Mand E website, it doesn’t matter, or does wood type for that matter. Other makers say similar things… Anyway…
Thanks for all the response. It definitely helps to make an informed decision.
IMO blackwood sounds better than any human made material. This isn’t entirely without
controversy and you will find, if you search on delrin, threads devoted to it. But I do
think most, though certainly not all, players agree with this. Also you will note
that the great flautists perform on wooden flutes almost always, with the
rare exception being ebonite (which is very interesting stuff). It’s not that
delrin sounds bad but, as a board member once put it: ‘The soul of the tree
is alive in the wood.’ There’s something more ‘alive’ sounding in wood.
Also wood, especially blackwood, is tough and easy to care for. Unless you are living
under extraordinary circumstances, delrin isn’t needed. The wood needs to be
seasoned and the flute well made. If so, the prospect of cracking in your lifetime
is remote–given sensible care.
I’ve visited the Sweets and I’ve known them for years. I do think they started
running into cracking problems with laminate several years ago and switched
laminate. I think non-laminate wood (e.g. blackwood) sounds better. I also like the older thread-wrapped
flutes in maple, and my favorite Sweetheart-wood is cherrywood.
I have no problem switching from flute to flute in sessions. I’m often playing
in jams where we’re switching keys a good deal (non-ITM) and
I just put down a D flute, a G flute, an A flute, also a D whistle, on
a towel or something directly in front of me. There is no problem
switching. I like the different voices and pitches. I think this may
even be preferable to playing in different keys on a keyed flute.
Sounds better.
Of course it is nice to use standard fingering.
The Sweets, by the way, make a very beautiful C flute, deeper than the standard D.
I have one in Cherry and it’s something else. It has a lovely rudall sound and the
depth of tone is very nice. It’s worth several times what they charge. You might
like this better than the C fife.
As I mentioned earlier, most of us aren’t using keys to play in odd keys,
but to play ‘accidental’s’ in standard ITM keys. You may find that
the keyed Irish flute isn’t so helpful for playing in odd keys. It’s certainly
possible that unkeyed flutes in different keys will serve you better.
If you are going to play Klezmer, say, and you want real facility on a keyed flute
a Boehm flute may serve you better than a keyed Irish flute.
I do like keyed Irish flutes, very sexy, the keys can be helpful, but it’s good
to know what you are after. I’ll let others tell you about the M&E.
I recently wanted a 4-keyed Eb flute and ordered one in blackwood from Dave Copley. Its a very nice flute. It seems there are some serious M & E fans out there. I’ve only played one M & E–a 4-keyed flute I ordered, kept a year and then sold. Can’t say I cared for it that much. It was very heavy, not easy to play, was out of tune for me, and had huge clunky keys that were hard to get to–though they were very solid. Anyway, I think the Copley is superior in every way and the turnaround time for them is remarkably reasonable. (Actually my M & E was made very quickly too). Anyway, I don’t know what the exchange rate is right now, but I’m not sure the Copley would be that much more and IMHO would be a far better choice. Just my 2 cents. I can’t share their enthusiasm, but I’m actually glad that M & E have strong adherents as they were very responsive and seemed like really decent people.
Yes, a keyed flute could be indispensable, and altogether necessary. However, I’ve also learned that much can be done with a keyless flute, too.
In that sense, Sweetheart also makes a delightful, keyless C flute, about as good as good gets, and perhaps as a replacement for your keyless C fife.
About polymer, I have a Forbes Delrin D flute, by Rob Forbes, and it’s a great flute! I’m a Blackwood fan, but a Delrin flute just might surprise you.
Now, if you need a keyed flute, then that’s what you need, but otherwise perhaps an assortment of keyless flutes could go a long, long way.
thanks everyone that wrote. Everything you all said is very helpful.
-Daniel M