Tunes on Clips & Snips

Whistle
1

Hi all.


I’m fairly new to whistling. I’ve actually owned one for 10+ years, but realy only tootled around with accompanying ballad singers/guitar (mostly at rather drunken kitchen parties!). It’s only in the past year that I’ve gotten into trying to learn jigs, reels & the like.

Anyway, over the last little while, I’ve finally gotten up enough nerve to post some tunes on Clips & Snips (listening to yourself play is a very humbling experience!). I would graciously accept constructive criticism anyone out there has on my playing or suggestions on how to improve.

Thanks,

Steve Barnes

2

Hi Steve,

I acknowledge you for getting up the nerve to post a recording and for asking for opinions/coaching!

I’d recommend a couple things:

  1. Slow down… a lot…

Sounded like you thought you’d better play the tunes fast, as a result, a lot of notes and clarity got lost. I really enjoy hearing a tune played at a leisurely pace with precision in the timing and deliberateness to the ornamentation. Slow it down until you can put every single note and ornament exactly where you want it, then speed things up slowly over time. Just for reference, I practice my reels at 90 bpm and jigs at around 105 bpm. Slower if I’m working out a part.

  1. Watch your timing

I practice with a metronome. Darned things speed up and slow down all the time. :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Michael
http://www.michaeleskin.com

3

Hey SteveB,

‘LetMeFish…’

Very nice playing! Very sweet tone. I love the expression you put into it!

There are a few spots where the notes could be tweaked up or down a bit if you wanted them to be in ‘perfect’ tune.

I’ve already listened to it a couple of times. Still diggin’ it! :slight_smile:

4

Hi Steve. After reading a couple of reviews I went looking for your tunes and finally found them.

Very good! I was expecting a frenetic flurry, but didn’t get it. Mason’s Apron is the most hurried of the 3 I heard, but it’s not THAT hurried.

When practicing I push it up to a speed that causes occassional errors. Then when there are people around I slow it to about 80 - 85% of what I’m capable of. (Don’t ask me how I rate that). That slower pace takes away that “hurry up” sound and reduces errors.

I especially liked the tone, and the degree of tongue-ing. To me it was perfect. Keep up the good work. You are a better whistler than I am by a wide margin.

Tom.

5

Steve, very promising, keep at it.

I feel you need to make the tunes flow more, and that’s all in the details.

I’d second what Michael said about timing and especially about slowing down so that you can get everything in its proper place - for example the rolls in Toss the Feathers, which are not clearly articulated and don’t work very well, or the G2BG dGBG figures in Ryegrass, which sound a bit garbled.

In Toss the Feathers, I notice that although you are using rolls in all the usual places you don’t make much use of simpler devices such as cuts, which I feel would help you get more flow, say between the repeated high Es in the second part. Also in that tune I (personally) would avoid playing Gs - they don’t belong in the tune’s scale.

In Ryegrass I think you’d get more flow, esp. in the second part, if you injected a bit more lilt by varying the length or weight or emphasis on the note pairs, rather than playing them rather straight, and straight ahead, as you seem to be doing. This is a stylistic preference of course and it’s very hard to explain how to make things different. Slowing down will help.

Did you base your Mason’s Apron on the playing Matt Molloy by any chance? He’s a player who often “pushes against the beat” aggressively. If so consider playing in a more laid-back style for a little while. In the early stages aim to get through to people more with lilt and infectious rhythm than with speed.

But as the others have said, bravo. The basics are there but it’s by working on the details that you’ll make a difference in your playing. And of course by listening, listening, listening to good players (on all traditional instruments). If you do that things will rub off that nobody can explain to you.

Steve J

6

Thanks guys your suggestions & support. While we novices often fixate on ornamentation & speed, the consensus i’m getting here (as well as from local musicians I speak with) is that good pacing & “lilt” is the key to good traditional playing.

Anyway, I’ve got some practising to do. Thanks again,

Steve Barnes

7

This may be a closing comment, or it may stir up controversy. There’s something about Irish music that’s kinda sorta above criticism. It’s like jazz. If it sounds good TO YOU, then it IS good…to you. I’m sometimes slightly disturbed (just a little) by some who point to a standard. I think there’s a part of us that knows good stuff when we hear it. Mine is in the part of my foot that controls tapping. And everything I just said applies especially to ornamention.

8

The controversy has been stirred up before - we’ve had a few lively debates in the past between (in one corner) those who appear to wish to uphold (or some would say impose) standards, and (in the other corner) those who feel, variously, that, this being folk music, there are no standards, they can play it exactly how they want, nobody should tell them how to play, etc. etc. There was in general no meeting of minds!

Your statement to the effect that what sounds good to you is good to you is a truism. But do you expect everyone to agree with what you think about what sounds good?

When you say “some point to a standard” I assume you mean me. I’m not pointing to a single standard. In fact I have pretty catholic tastes as far as ways of playing Irish music are concerned. But I have tastes all the same. I don’t seek to impose them. I was careful to make it clear that what I said are my personal views. But Steve asked for opinions.

Maybe he would rather not have heard the answers, I don’t know. But that’s the risk you take when you ask questions. But of course he is free to ignore the advice or come to any kind of conclusion he wants about the motives of the person giving the advice, or the value of that advice.

In any case nobody said that Steve’s tunes sounded bad. People merely suggested ways in which (in their views) it could be improved.

I think a lot of jazz musicians would pick up on what you say if they were around. Jazz is a musical form which, I think ( and this may prove controversial) demands considerably more skill and knowledge than Irish traditional to play to a very high standard. And are you suggesting that an aspiring jazz player could learn nothing from more experienced players, and shouldn’t ask for their advice?

Let’s debate.

PS talking of things that disturb us slightly, it bothers me when people are oblique in their criticism and couch it in generalities. If you are disturbed by what I say, why not post “Steve, I am disturbed when you say this” instead of "it disturbs me when some… " etc. etc. Then I can answer you as one human being to another instead of pretending to be in some parliamentary debate.

9

Your points are well taken, StevieJ.

10

E = Fb,

Does that mean that you would consider sitting down in a session, and play whatever, as long as it pleases you ? This is the biggest enigma for me about those who think your way, I really don’t see how your philosophy can be compatible with playing with people, and for me playing in group is the biggest part of irish music.

11

What is the deal with this repeated pattern of posting?

  1. Mr/Mrs. X posts a request for feedback/critique of a recording.

  2. A, B, and C offer objective opinions and suggestions for improvement. i.e. they’ve gladly given for free, at least in my case, what they are often payed good money for as instructors.

  3. D, E, and F jump all over A, B, and C for giving Mr/Mrs. X exactly the advice they requested (for free even), claiming “if it sounds good to you that’s all that matters…” and dismissing the advise given…

  4. A, B, and C have to defend their position…

Well, this yet another one of those #4 messages…

  • light fuse and get away… *

In my opinion and experience, the “if it sounds good to you” position is fine if you have no expectations of playing along with other people in anything remotely resembling a traditional session environment.

Its great that lots of people own and play whistles and get great enjoyment from it, but if you’re representing yourself as a traditional Irish musician, particularly if you aspire to playing in a traditional session setting, in my opinion and experience there are, like it or not, generally standards for performance. There is certainly freedom of style, some players are more stacatto, some more flowing, but as one example of “proper” playing, there are right and wrong ways of playing ornamentation that are common to all styles playing, no less than in any other style of music. For example, it just isn’t within my interpretation of the stylistic tradition to play long rolls with the timing of classical turns, yet I hear it all the time from newer players, particularly those who learn primarily from books, where its often notated that way.

I like to think of sessions as being like a bowling league without handicaps. You’re all there to have fun, but you can’t just throw the ball down any lane because “it would be fun for you”. Its also not a lot of fun for the 240 average teams to play with the 85 average teams and vice- versa. Certainly not because the 240 average teams are “arrogant bowling-nazi jerks” and the 85 average teams are “slacker wanna-be clueless live-and-let-live hippys”, but because its just more fun to play with people of similar skill level. The 85 players help each other out with the basics of the game and keeping the ball out of the gutter, while the 240 players, who have worked hard for a long time to get to that level, enjoy discussing the more subtle aspects of game, lane conditions, picking up the hard splits, ball composition, etc…

I’d love to see what would happen if an 85 average bowler walked into a 240 average scratch bowling league and started whining about how its free country and they should just let him play any way he wants. Yet, some people think that its fine to come and cock-up a session because of their Constitutional right of free expression…

Most good sessions I’ve been to are benign dictatorships… :slight_smile:


Michael
http://www.michaeleskin.com

12

Woa, I agree 200%, couldnt have explained half as well as you did. For me, it’s very frustrating to hear things like “do whatever as long as your happy” because I have been practicing so much in the three past years to try to reach a level where I wouldnt be bothering other musicians. To make sure that some session leader wouldnt think “oh no, not that guy who thinks he plays irish and he doesnt” or something like that. It’s lotsa effort, and it makes me mad when some people will just dismiss this whole thing as “irish music is folk and a session is a jam, do whatever the way you want it, and do not care about what other people think and do not care about a session chemistry”.

These people have the rights to their own opinion, but it will always drive me mad :slight_smile:

13

whoa,

I didn’t mean to stir up a fuss.

“E=Fb”, I appreciate your kind words on my playing, but I’m afraid I have to agree with Steve J. & Michael on this topic. While traditional music is by no means rigid, the very word “traditional” implies that that it has at its core, certain time-tested fundamentals & standards which are passed from player to player and from one generation to the next. While there might be a great deal of individual & regional variations in style, as well as slow changes over time, its these fundamentals that make the music what it is. If seasoned players fail to impart the fundamentals, or if new players fail to heed them, the tradition will eventually be watered down & die out. A good analogy is when wife was learning traditional Newfoundland quilt making from her grandmother. Her grandmother could accept my wife’s use of modern fabrics and new-age designs, but was certainly quick to point out any sloppy stitch work!

Anyway, enough pontificating for me today.


Steve B

14

I used to be interested in jazz and tried, fairly unnsuccessfully, to play it. I hung out with some jazz musicians. Some of them were pretty good but none were ever well known. I also read a lot in magazines like Down Beat and Metronome. I think it’s safe to say that to jazz musicians, only the idea of jazz was above criticism. That is, jazz was just taken to be good without question. Other than that, everything else was extensively criticised. Time, tone, ideas, fluency,..you name it. I could hardly think of people more concerned with standards.

In any event, I’m not sure where the source of “goodness” in music lies according to E=Fb. The initial statement sounds like the goodness is in ME. Is this another way of saying “It’s all subjective”? However, another statement (“a part of us that knows good stuff”) makes it sound like the goodness is in the music but that we have some faculty for recognizing it. The two statements seem at odds with each other.

Steve

15

Hi guys. It’s sure easy to step into it…and I did.

I guess Irish trad is like speech-making. (I’m in Toastmasters). There are poor speeches and good ones. And you can break down the elements of a good speech, and teach those. But you can only go so far. Once you get into teaching voice inflection, the tilt of the head etc, it just gets silly. The way to become good at it is to feel it, and say it. Experience will take care of most of the details.

I’m saying it’s like that. With with lots of listening and playing experience you get the feel of it, and it comes out.

I’m totally NOT in favor of amateurs assuming they can sit in on sessions.

One more analogy and I’ll shut up. It’s like a child learning to talk. You don’t have to teach the kid grammar or enunciation. Lo and behold we can all speak our native language without ever meeting a teacher. Each in our own special way.

16

This is something I’ve often wondered about. After WWII jazz headed in some pretty complicated directions and musicians needed more “head knowledge”-theory, composition, etc.-to stay with what was going on. And jazz musicians have always needed considerable skill on their instruments to play well. I once watched a documentary about Chet Baker (very revealing in many ways!). Another trumpet player, Jack Sheldon, talked a lot about Baker. He said all Baker had to do was blow in the trumpet and press the valves and it sounded good. Baker had essentially no head knowledge and Sheldon made it sound as if he didn’t need to practice. Just play. So Baker and the traditional Irish musician may be equal in the knowledge department. But was his degree of skill really more than that of a uilleann piper who practices the requisite number of years to attain mastery? I don’t know and I don’t know how to compare them but I’m inclined to think possibly the pipes has as much skill as the trumpet player.

Steve

17

As a Uilleann piper and a whistle player, yes, it does require considerable practice and dedication to be even a somewhat servicable piper.

By the way, its one of the few instruments I can think of that you often have to adjust your playing technique based on the weather… :slight_smile:

Cheers,

Michael
http://www.michaeleskin.com

18

Musing about E’s comments again I recognize something that I agree with… some playing is above criticism.

Supposing someone listened to the playing of some of the older players who had a simpler style (say Miko Russell or Joe Bane) and examined their ornamentation in the light of the playing of modern recorded heroes. Our fictitious critic might come to the conclusion that the playing of these old guys was sub-par because they didn’t do things the way our high-profile modern virtuosos do. (In fact there was a thread about this some time ago in the flute forum where somebody used exactly that word, “sub-par”, about flute players he disparagingly referred to as “geezers”.)

This would be to miss the point entirely - M. Russell’s and J. Bane’s playing is, in my view, above criticism, because it has the essential ingredients to make it very pleasing and enjoyable: fabulous rhythm, and an intrinsic total understanding of the musical form manifested through phrasing, variation, and so on.

Whether you think like me about these particular examples depends on your own understanding of the musical form and on your own standpoint. And the same goes for other examples, including Steve B’s clips.

PS An anecdote: I was once at a house session in Melbourne where the late Jimmy Power, who was touring Australia, played. Jimmy was a very well-known fiddle player in London, but his style was rough and ready and not greatly sophisticated. Present was an aspiring young fiddler who had previously expressed doubts about the “older guys” - he had asked me about the fiddling of the great John Doherty, saying, “I’m supposed to like it, but I don’t… do I have to?”

But after listening to Jimmy (who it has to be said couldn’t hold a candle to Doherty) play for over an hour, he suddenly turned to me and said, “You can’t improve on that.”

19

You’re saying it’s beyond criticism because it’s good and then giving the reasons why you think it’s good. But that’s criticism in the broad sense. You are acting as a music critic who happens to like what he’s hearing.

Steve

20

Well, I think good opinions one and all… so what the heck… here’s the long and short of mine… :smiley:

I started out with my own copper water tubing whistle, and played nothing but slow aires at first because it’s all I could pick out by ear, and I did that for quite some time I’ll admit. I’ve never had any type of formal training at all so there I was.

After a while though (all along really after I started hearing some cool jigs and reels on various albums and stuff) I really wanted to play some of the lively stuff, and I just emulated it the best I could, and after a while, to me, it sounded pretty good. I knew I wasn’t near as good as ‘those guys’ but I thought I was doing well. UNTIL… I recorded myself!! :laughing: It wasn’t all that bad, but my ornamentations were muddy, I couldn’t figure it out no matter how hard I tried, and there were no local teachers (and still aren’t) to tell me such things as rolls, crans, strikes, etc.

finally the internet grew, some sites appeared with info and instructions and I slowly re-trained myself and am slowly getting better bit by bit. It’s fun, and I’d say He’s well on his way.

So I kind of get many of the opinions rolled into one. I learned entirely on my own. Got the feel and heart of it. The love and passion for it. Finally found out all the technical stuff for it, and here I am. :smiley:

Take care all, and happy whistling!!!
(oh yeah… playing in session is definately different… I am learning the difficulties of keeping the same beat as everyone else… I’m used to playing by myself, and I can keep pretty good time, but I screw up on occasion, and if someone else does even a little, I go down with them … I am getting much better, but I’m still learning too! :smiley: )

John