I’m curious what you all think of the playing on tinwhistler.com. The Wandering Whistler obviously is good on his instrument. I’m a novice by comparison, but I’m not sure I want to play the way he does. To me it seems like there’s a LOT of ornamentation. Is it too much, or about right? Any thoughts anyone?
A single ornament, played badly, is way too many; whereas a whopping big bunch of well-played, appropriately-placed ornaments is not too many at all.
I hope you realize that this sort of discussion my cause some uneasiness. There is a strong movement that looks askance at any sort of comment of someone’s playing that says anything but “great wonderful, and isn’t it nice.” One might assume that by putting yourself out there, you considered advice or criticism, even where it is a bit hard to swallow at the time as fair game and welcome, but that is not really the case. Even if someone who puts his playing out there is willing to take the more advanced player’s comment, many onlookers (especially newbies) consider negative criticism as somehow fouling up the air and therefore an offence against the board at large. For this reason there is very little critiquing of other whistler’s playing (except occasionally when people put out “tutorials” or something of the sort who shouldn’t quite yet).
So I don’t think you should expect much in response. Ridseards post already shows that people will prefer speaking in commonplaces and generalities.
There really is an unspoken rule, for good reason, that you don’t say negative things about peoples’ playing unless they outright ask for critique. Then, it would be appropriate to give constructive criticism as opposed to expressing your feelings about a rendition. Saying nice things is nice. How useful it is… It would be very stifling of people sharing their tunes on line if it was open season and the board might become less friendly.
I’m wondering if your question is ‘should I be emulating Wandering Whistler’s playing because I like it?’ That may be a valid reason right there. If the question is ‘who should I be emulating in order to sound like an authentic Irish trad player?’ most of us would be inclined to list a number of professional musicians who have readily available cd’s and have been acclaimed as superior players. Might as well set your sights at the very top. There have been loads of recommendations posted on the board over time. I won’t be satisfied until I’m as good as Paddy Moloney. Then, I’ll want to be better than him. 
(Am I diplomatic, or what?)
Tony
i recently recieved a good critique regarding my latest posting on clips and snips march 22/23rd. It was a good critique not because it contained things i wanted to hear but rather usefull input given in a tactfull way. I believe that constructive criticism can be a usefull tool. Keep in mind that everything is subjective. However there are some good players on this board that im sure would be happy to give input on “your” playing not on a third parties.
Jason
It’s especially a hard case, as Wandering Whistler has removed himself from posting to this board (he told me he purposely changed his password to something that can’t be remembered), so this matter will be a one-way street, without any interchange with the player in question, so long as it’s on C&F. That said, a forthright discussion of his playing style, or any known player’s style, would serve far more value to other players than a few compliments.
I do that all the time…except for the “on purpose” part.
Is there a particular tune you find over ornamented, or is it in general?
I just listened to Gravel Walks, Drowsie Maggie, The Silver Spear, and The Blarney Pilgrim, and didn’t find them overly ornamented (if anything they were pretty sparse on ornamentation, and I’m not big on highly ornamented playing).
If I was held at gunpoint and forced to comment, the only general problem I noticed was a tendancy to cutt many notes too short and not give them their full time. This can be a nice effect if used sparingly, but it was pretty consistent through all the tunes I listened to on almost every note.
I guess this doesn’t help with your basic question…but maybe I didn’t listen to the same tunes you did. ?
-Brett
P.S. I also tend to do the same thing (cutting notes too short) when I’m nervous or playing a tune I find difficult and trying to concentrate really hard. 
Actually, I was well aware that Greg had abandoned this site forever, that’s why I was bold enough to ask. I should add that he and I play together at least weekly.
I continue to learn from him. I love his drive and sense of humor. His style seems to work with our band. The fiddler and I add few ornaments. His heavy ornamentation is like a descant. But if I also did what he does the sound would be chaotic. (Not that I could, anyway).
I wasn’t looking for a general evaluation of his playing, just a comment on the use of ornamentation. Too much, too little, just right?
Edit to answer Brett: It’s most pronounced on slow aires. The ornamention really showed up when we played on stage and shared a mike. He seems to use a lot of note “bending”, especially on aires.
Having many times been the object of such discussions myself, I thought I would add my voice to those proclaiming this a Bad Idea.
I have found Greg to be an extremely approachable and personable fella. I don’t think it’s right to talk about his playing behind his back, as it were…I’m not sure it would be appropriate even if it was to his face, actually, unless he explicitly invited such discussion.
I will say I’ve learned a lot from him and from his site, and I bought a couple of really good whistles from him. And I’ll leave it at that point.
–James
I don’t remember why Wandering Whistler left.
I do remember his leaving, though. I miss him, and I’m sure there are others who miss him as well. We’re all learning, and things change around here.
If there’s any chance you could entice him back, I’m sure he would be welcome. The moderators can deal with the password thing (Dale’s an expert at it, as he’s stated above).
Best wishes,
Jerry
I’ll talk to him about the forum thing. I think he got annoyed at the politics. I kind of enjoy it. I’ve learned more about myself than about whistles from this site.
It seems to me that if you put up a site the likes of tinwhistler.com, then it is fair game for a critique whether you’re on this site or not. I’m not at a computer with sound capabilities at the moment, so i can’t comment on wondering whistler’s style or use of ornaments. Now, I’m not advocating flames. But it seems like such a “be kind” rule would throw out the baby with the bath water if it disallow a critique of this sort, which can help you develop your taste’s and ear for things.
I’m sorry, if w.w.'s feelings are going to be hurt by such critiques, then he shouldn’t be putting himself out there in such a manner. When an author puts a book out on the market, he or she has to be willing to face criticism, good or bad. Just my two pesos.
Next time, try writin’ Dear Abby to solve yer conflicts. Nothing personal, but if I opened up this Forum and saw one of the other WhiskyTones polling others on my taste, it would really hurt. Even if the other person “said” he considered himself a lesser player. This will destroy your band, if not now, soon.
And your disclaimer rings false. If not the ornaments, then what?? It’s obvious you think the guy plays too many and you can’t figure out a way to not be sick of it. And lots of slides on slow airs is annoying and has become a big cliche, especially with a fat reverb.
If you really want an answer, get out your cd player and listen to zillions of pro recordings. You can evaluate anybody all by yourself. Discern what is style, what is ability and remember that good players make conscious choices.
Players who aren’t open-eared sometimes gravitate to an unbending style and become mannered, especially if they are in a vacuum with no competition or don’t go to hear other players. This applies to any instrument and its my own greatest insecurity whether on guitar or whistle. The problem is that really great players do sort of the same thing eventually but after they have amassed a lifetime of musical experiences. That’s how you can tell Micho from Mary. With enough credibility and fans, very mannered folk abound. It reached the point where BB King only played on two frets, I swear, at least on the soloes I saw. But everybody smiled and genuflected around here.
Think of Floyd Kramer the pianist. He took the Irish cut and applied it to every single note. They sell his rekerds on late night TV. When I listen to the selections, I am just dying to hear one note delivered without a cut. Noone would deny his “greatness” though.
I might be able to suggest one thing to think about. When I listen to whistlers and whistle talk, I discern two basic kinds of players. One kind really wants the soloes, loves to use the Slowdowner to get the exact nuance of the pros. These folk actually just want to play by themselves or maybe one guitar. I am becoming really aware of this around me because the available teaching materials are creating a sort of patterned whistle learner as the materials become widely available. I had an anonymous encounter with a whistler recently and I could really hear exactly where he had been and where he was going with his playing. Not a bad thing, mind you, but familiar.
Others, like me, want to blend into the fiddle and be the soundtrack of a driving band sound. I am a good candidate for a band because I don’t need soloes to be happy, as long as everybody else is in sync. I just want to party with this great music, not be the MC.
If the former type tries to play in the band, he must lead most of the time or else you will get the chaos you refer to.
I don’t mean to offend you but you might need some breathin’ space yet are afraid to leave the presence of an accomplished and known player. Building new bands is hard but bands break up all the time and you just hafta be brave about it…
Please take no personal offence at this. We on the Forum may be giving you the answers you need rather than what you think you need.
Me too! And finger vibrato on the long notes. You have to imitate someone singing it, so if you can get to hear someone singing a song “Old Style” (Sean Nos, unaccompanied singing) and translate that to your instrument, you have it.
Just to clarify my point (not that you were responding directly to it): I am not so much worried about Greg’s (Wanderingwhistler’s) feelings. He can handle it I am sure.
No want I meant was this “niceness” and “the board might become less friendly” thing Tony was alluding to. If I were to say that WW’s rolls are rushed (can’t say that there were too many) and the phrasing off and his tonguing in awkward places (I only listened to Silver Spear, probably an older clip), Greg might take it for what it’s worth or leave it. But many people on the board seem to think that such are terrible words to say, and that the board was less friendly for it. That bugs me and has always bugged me because it seems to eliminate a useful aspect of the board: learning to actually play the music by getting helpful (rather than bland and “friendly”) input.
As an experiment, next time someone posts a clip, putting themselves out there for public comment by implication if not explicitly, try actually commenting that it was wobbly, wrong accents, sloppy ornaments, whatever. Within minutes you will be receiving pm’s telling you that you “can’t say something like that on the board.”
Don’t misunderstand me: I am all for tact and humility and kind words. But I know that I have profited from getting things told to me straight, and from hearing things told to others straight. I regret that there is not more of that sort of thing on the chiffboard and I blame the nice-and-friendly mob for it.
Oh, the futile rantings of my crazed mind.
Weekenders,
I guess you’re addressing your comment to me. No offense taken. I’m not exactly i understand what the issue is. But my point is that if somebody like w.w. puts a site or CD or something out there like he did, then we have a right to critique it. By “critique” i mean preference evaluations or appraisal of technical stuff; whatever. If somebody puts up a clip here, however, that right is not automatic because we have tacitly agreed to the “be generous first, and critique if critiquee consents and to only the level that critiquee consents.”
If our critique happens to destroy a band or somebody out there in the public domain, that may be regrettable and i wouldn’t hope to do that, but i don’t think is something we should be losing sleep over. One of the benefits of a site like this is to be able to talk honestly and openly about certain things, i donno, like, whistle playing. But hey, i’m not saying this is the final word on anything. Just throwing it out there.
Now, it occurs to me upon further reflection that the issue is about borderline cases. w.w. (greg?) is one of them. weekender’s i take it that you’re another. I don’t know what the answer is, although some line has to be drawn. It seems like it would make sense to extend the generosity rule to members who are “out there” a bit; since I certainly would value seeing a forum member get out there, have some fun, flourish, and tell us the stories over our pontifications about their abilities. On the other hand, it strikes me that there’s a point where the generosity principle ends. Perhaps w.w.'s site it an example. He’s representing himself to the world as someone with knowledge and abilities and so forth, so it seems like he’d be fair game (the site is also commercial, technically). But if it’s just a special interest sight, somebody expressing their love for the wonderful world of the whistle and whistle tunes, then perhaps the generosity principle could apply. Just thinkin out loud…
Now, when the day comes with i release my CD and change the face of tin whistling as we know it, i’ll WILL expect generosity. And lots and lots of money 
Actually, I haven’t seen much worryin’ about niceness here.
And ya’ll sure as Hell ain’t humble. 
–James
A friend of mine pointed me to this thread, so I thought I’d come have a look-see. Hadda make an account (actually, I had to make two, as one of them didn’t get the activation email for some reason) so that I could answer as there’s clearly a lot of speculation. So, consider this the definitive word from me on the subject–anyone is welcome to write me at the email address listed on my site to confirm it’s me.
First thing’s first–my site and the music on it: I don’t mind if you guys talk about the stuff I’ve posted on my site. You can praise it or condemn it, as you wish..though, like most people, I’d probably get more ego cookies from praise. Be aware, though, that the actual playing “ability” on the site isn’t really representative. I last recorded for the site in 2002, and many of the tunes mentioned in this thread (like silver spear) were actully recorded more like 2001 or earlier. A few years practice makes a big difference. As anyone who has posted to clips and snips can tell ya, you tend to cringe at the older stuff. That’s just the nature of putting something in a fixed medium, especially when you’re still growing. I’m not sure about the “commercial” characterization of the site, as I’ve only ever gotten $30.00 in donations in all the years I’ve run it (and indeed, have since removed the donation link), but c’est la vie.
Second thing’s second, and this one’s directed mostly to Weekenders. I’m not sure where the sour attitude is coming from, but you’re evidently under some misunderstandings. You may or may not know, but I recently moved to Dallas. Mongoose asked me to join his group, something like 2 months ago. It’s his group, not mine. I don’t get the impression that he’s somehow ‘chafing under me’, nor do I feel like I have the need to be lead musician. It’s his group, and I’m the johnny-come-lately. If for any reason they felt uncomfortable with me there, I’d leave if it couldn’t be worked out, no question. That said, I don’t feel like there’s any “conflict” that should be directed at “Dear Abby”. Mongoose and I definitely have different styles…I roll a lot of dotted quarters, for instance. I slur into long notes on airs, a la Joanie Madden (where I got most of my early whistle inspiration). I don’t get the impression that they think that sucks…I do get the impression that he was simply asking for advice on whether or not he should go that route, because he wasn’t sure he wanted to. That said, I think he’s gotten some solid advice from Tony, which is “Listen to some pros and find your style based upon what you like.” I’m the last guy anyone should be striving to emulate.
Oh, and Mongoose, please don’t ever feel intimidated or afraid to discuss this kinda stuff, whether it’s about my playin or not…i’m heading back into obscurity. I just wanted to post my position since there was more speculation on that than your actual question (one of the primary reasons I don’t post any more)