The Old Stuff vs. the New (an anecdote)

Trad Irish Music
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It’s an underlying topic in much that is discussed here, of course. I can’t offer a new brilliant insight or analysis, or even some smoothly-worded comment on modern tastes and the General Decay of the World. But I would like to share this little anecdote because it says something about the impact and power of the pure drop, old stuff: you know, the geezers with unfortunate haircuts.

I received last night a shipment of CDs and cassettes from Green Linnet. (I posted a list here.) Among them were Jack & Charlie Coen’s Branch Line. One of the fist things I listened to with my wife were a couple of unaccompanied solo flute tracks on that CD (some Jigs, and Lads of Laois/Green Groves of Erin). Pure, lovely, strong playing. The playing is “simple” with only sparse ornamentation, and it is fairly slow, relaxed I would say. My wife, who does not share my ITM obsession, but is open to any good music, just loved them, listened delightedly and said such things as “what interesting places he choses to take a breath”.

Being in a flute sort of mood, I switched to Kevin Crawford’s In Good Company. Not wanting to spoil the mellow mood with some high-speed track, I chose track 12 on that album: The Banks of Suir/Mama’s Pet (air and reel).

Ugh. It is not just soupy accompaniment, the glutinous violin section, or the wafty schmaltzy sound. The flute playing seemed just lifeless. It was highly ornamental and certainly steady. There was something vital missing. It was Joanie’s Whistle On the Wind all over. “Just turn it of,” my wife said. “No, let’s wait for the reel,” I replied. But it didn’t get any better when Crawford went into the reel: There they were again, the syrupy violins in the background playing long chords, taking the strenght out of the tune and turning it into pink cotton candy. It’s hard for me to put it so strongly here, because I like Kevin Crawford’s playing generally. But that track really turned me off: It will be a few days before I’ll listen to the rest of the CD.

What makes me write this up is the starkness of the contrast, going from Jack Coen to Kevin Crawford. There is Jack, recorded on a reel-to-reel in his house in the Bronx, here is Kevin, with recording studio, mixing, production, and a chamber orchestra. That can’t be reason, the difference. But the feeling of loss was so strong from one recording to the other. Jack was telling me the truth, Kevin was just lulling me to sleep, hoping I wouldn’t think, feel, live. It felt like I could trust one but not the other.

This is a bit rambling, I know, and probably inadequate to express my feeling: my visceral reaction to style, technique, and technology in ITM. And of course it’s not a clear-cut thing, either, I love listening to Lunasa.

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Hey, Im interested in honest reactions, Bloomie. Very interesting observations.

I have that Russell Family Album and I swear I can feel the sun shining and sea breeze right through the vinyl. To then put on yer least favorite ITW Joanie record is a similar journey to me.

But different strokes, etc…

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Bloom, you picked one of the very worst tracks on the Kevin Crawford CD. The airs are a severe lapse of taste, but program your CD player to skip them. The rest is first-rate.

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Bloom,
Your observations are spot on. Listening to the Russell Family Album or The Branch Line album and then listening to Joanie or Kevin Crawford is like the difference between listening to Bach played by the Boston Philharmonic and listening to Barry Mantilow and John Tesh team up to play Bach. One is the real true thing, the other a shallow pale imitation.
Looking over your list of what you ordered I noticed you missed a few good ones though.

Ron

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Tell me what you think the good ones are: I might have them already, or perhaps I’ll get them on your recommendation. That sale is still on. :slight_smile:

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There is “Warming Up” Jack Coen on Flute, Martin Mulhaire on Box and Seamus Connolly on Fiddle.
Joe Burke The Tailor’s Choice- Lovely Flute Playing
Malloy, Brady and Peoples

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I know Warming Up, like the last track on that one particularly. Got Molloy/Brady/Peoples: I think that Peoples is great on that, Molloy is (still) ok on it, and Brady wasn’t having his best day. :slight_smile:
Don’t know the Burke one. Is that Joe Banjo Burke or Joe Box Burke?

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Every person thinks and hears everything differently. And this old vs. the new is a real load of bull. There was just as many bad artists back then as there is now, its just that most of those didn’t survive/ last to still be listened to today. Also, I disagree with your evaluation of Kevin Krawfords playing. Over-ornamentation is just the fox and the grapes, saying that they were probably sour anyway. I concede that the accompaniment is probably not the best it could be, but you can’t compare solo’s to band arrangements.

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On 2002-11-26 21:20, Bloomfield wrote:
I know Warming Up, like the last track on that one particularly. Got Molloy/Brady/Peoples: I think that Peoples is great on that, Molloy is (still) ok on it, and Brady wasn’t having his best day. > :slight_smile:
Don’t know the Burke one. Is that Joe Banjo Burke or Joe Box Burke?

That recording (Taylor’s Choice) is Joe Accordian Burke.

If any body knows of recordings of Joe Banjo Burke, please let me know. The only one I know is his work on Musical Memories by Tom Dunne. His singing is my favorite of all singers. I only got to see him live a couple of times a few years ago.

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On 2002-11-26 23:12, quicksilver wrote:
Also, I disagree with your evaluation of Kevin Krawfords playing. Over-ornamentation is just the fox and the grapes, saying that they were probably sour anyway. I concede that the accompaniment is probably not the best it could be, but you can’t compare solo’s to band arrangements.

I don’t think bloomfield mentioned over-ornamentation with regards to Kevin Crawford’s playing, but just highly ornamented. I have this CD, and I agree that he was missing something vital in the airs, plus the airs sounded syrupy which is something I don’t like to listen to. (I didn’t get Colm O’Donnell’s flute CD for exactly the same reason either.. too much reverb throughout) The “something vital” or “nyaah” (trying out a new term I learnt) has little to do with over or under ornamentation. Different people would play with varying amounts of ornamentation but what’s important, if they are playing trad Irish, is the feel/stylistics of it. Check out Noel Hill playing Taimse Mo Choladh for a highly ornamented air with “nyaah”. Or Davy Spillane on “Forgotten Days” playing Port na bPucai.

[ This Message was edited by: Eldarion on 2002-11-27 01:52 ]

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I think, and I think Bloomfield hinted at it himself, that the difference is that the ‘old guys’ you were listening to were just playing the music they would normally play, you sit them down switch the recordingmachine on and off they go. If you would sit Crawford down with, say Siobhan Peoples, in his kitchen and let them play away you’d probably get interesting stuff down.
The CD is a concept, a product. I heard a lot of tracks I liked on the radio and they made me decide to buy ‘Good Company’. I was surprised at how well thought out it was, there’s something there to please everybody, very cleverly done. I love most of the flute/fiddle duets [except the Frankie Gavin ones and the novelty of the low tracks with Martin Hayes wears off soon too I find] but the supermarket muzak on the air tracks is not nice at all. Still, that’s what you’d hear in the background in O’Brien’s world-wide sandwich emporium and places like that, along with the Joannie Madden tracks. Irish muzak for the touristmarket. It’s a matter of product placement

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but the supermarket muzak on the air tracks is not nice at all.

Agree completely. In general I like the Crawford CD, but the airs are enough of a turn-off for me that I don’t listen to the CD very much… Bad call, Kevin. :slight_smile:

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On 2002-11-27 01:47, Eldarion wrote:
" I didn’t get Colm O’Donnell’s flute CD for exactly the same reason either.. too much reverb throughout "

That’s a shame Xavier, because Colm’s CD is absolutely fantastic (and I’m no “Whistle on the wind” fan, that’s for sure!) Colm’s playing (to my ear) is some of the most “musical” of the “non-geezers”, by that I mean when you listen to his CD “Farewell to evening dances” you get the distinct sense that he’s not trying to bludgeon you with virtuosity, rather he’s simply playing for the music, passing on his love of it.

Might be a bit too much reverb in the mix, but that aside, I think you’re really missing out if you pass that CD up.

Loren

P.S. I didn’t care much for In Good Company either - Seemed a bit uninspired overall, much as I love Kevin Crawford’s playing in general.

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I’ll have to agree with Loren on the worth of Colm O’Donnell and the CD “Farewell to Evening Dances”. Every whistle player should have that one just to hear him play “The Maid of Mount Cisco”. Now if you wish someone had shot the Bodhran player in the background I might agree with you, but the whistle playing and the many variations he puts in to the piece are great. Add to this “The Dublin Reel” and his singing and lilting in “Cunla” and I feel I got my moneys worth from that CD. I’m afraid reverb is a fact of life in most modern recordings and it’s often over done. Add sound engineers to Bodhran players as suitable targets!

Best wishes, Tom

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Now that this thread has come up again, I should add my view of the rest of “In Good Company”. Like others here, I think everything apart from the slow airs is good. Some tracks are better than others, and the one track (Bryan O’Lynn, I think) Martin Hayes on his viola sounds like an old reel-to-reel that’s been slowed down by half. I particularly like the Young Tom Ennis set with james Cullinan (never heard of him before), Jimmy O’Reilly’s/Doonagore/Bellharbour Reel (with Tommy Peoples), and The High Road to Glin/Hard Road to Travel/Paddy Fahy’s (with Manus McGuire). But the other tracks are terrific, too. So: I like everything except the slow airs, which I detest. I don’t regret getting the CD, just wish I’d picked a different track to listen to first.


\

/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-12-22 08:48 ]

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On 2002-12-22 08:40, Bloomfield wrote:
…I particularly like the Young Tom Ennis set with james Cullinan (never heard of him before

Maybe all the more reason to get his CD with PJ Crotty and his wife Carol Cullinan. It was produced by Crawford who plays the bodhran on a few tracks. The overall sound is very like Good Company [partly the same backing musicians] though PJ does a nicer job on the airs, including the ‘Green Linnet’. I may have preferred it wihtout the backing but they did a very nice job on it.

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Tis the gift to be simple…

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Hi, Bloomfield,

I’m just writing to express my sympathy with your post. You will also find a similar effect when comparing the original blues players with modern “hotshot” players.
There are stylistic differences in the approach of modern players, as you have observed, but do not underestimate the effect that working in a modern studio can have on the “feel” of a given recording. There is something about the process of working in a studio that can absolutely crush the spontaneous qualities, or “life” if you like, out of music.
You may come out of the studio with a beautiful recording from a technical point of view, but musically, the recording can be something of an artificial construction, often driven by the imagination of the engineer. This is fine if the engineer is a genius like Brian Wilson, for example, but often music is compromised by over production.
I’ve worked in a studio, and believe me, when you are listening to the same track over and over again, you can develop a kind of tunnel vision about how the music should sound, and it is easy to become obsessed about one particular aspect to the detriment of others.
In my view, more earthy music styles such as folk, ITM, blues or whatever are particularly vulnerable to studio annihilation.
Combine this with the fact that those early guys were such damn good players, straightforward in their approach, playing to entertain rather than impress (usually, I guess!!), and the reasons why new stuff can seem rather “lacking” seem to become clear. Thank goodness some of the new stuff IS good, at least!

Best wishes, Adrian

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Peter -
I was wondering about your statement about not liking the tracks with Frankie Gavin. Is it that you don’t like them because you don’t like Frankie’s playing? Is it because you don’t like Frankie Gavin as a person? Or is it a combination of both?
I have no emotional involvement, whatever your answer may be. I’m just curious.
You may e-mail privately about this if you wish.
Best,
Chris