A dumb question probably, but what - apart from the chanters - is the difference between smallpipes and border pipes? I presume the drones are louder on the border pipes, but apart from that? I have the impression that playing pressures are roughly in the same ballpark, so would it be possible to e.g. play a quiet border chanter in a set of smallpipes? e.g. the “quieter” border chanter offered by elbowmusic?
Feel free to make sarcastic comments about my obvious lack of knowledge…
Chris.
Hi Chris
In a short answer - 1 octave.
I assume that it would be possible to play a border chanter with smallpipe drones, it would likely take some setting up though.
David
I know that the border pipe chanter is an octave above the smallpipe and much louder. That’s why I asked “apart from the chanters”. My question I suppose was really about whether one could play the border chanter with smallpipe drones, and what setting up would be involved?
Chris
Chris,
I had similar thoughts of just buying a borderpipe chanter to play with my smallpipe drones. I asked a similar question to a maker, and he indicated that it is not usually done due to the volume issues. I had purchased a set of Morrison borderpipes, and was surprised by the intense volume of the chanter. For that particular chanter, there is no way smallpipe drones would have worked. I haven’t used a chanter from elbowmusic, so can’t help you there. I suppose you could purchase the chanter alone and try it out, and if it is too loud for your smallpipe drones, sell it, or buy the rest of the set (??). Hopefully someone with more experience here could help out.
Scott
Hi Chris
Sorry for the facetious answer, but I have never seen a Border chanter matched to smallpipe drones. The only thing that I have seen similar to what you are asking is smallpipe drones with a Swayne Northumbrian Half Long chanter. The set sounded very nice, but the player said that he had to put harder reeds into the drones to match the chanter and that the smallpipe chanter could not be used with them as the reed would close down. He used the smallpipe chanter with an NSP set he had.
David
I have both border and small pipes.
The border drones are louder, but my Lauriebeck pipes are louder than other small pipes I have heard.
The border chanter is much louder - louder than a wide-bore D uilleann chanter.
I haven’t tried mixing and matching chanters, but I think the border chanter would overpower the small pipe drones.
Border pipes are more pressure sensitive than smallpipes, and because you can crossfinger notes, your fingering has to be good.
I find there is more back pressure on smallpipes, so the borders feel much lighter to play. I suspect there would be some pressure issues matching the border chanter and other drones.
I switched from hard-reeded uilleann pipes to border and small pipes,
so getting used to lighter pressure has been a challenge.
Mukade
Here’s my two cents.
I can’t speak directly about other makers pipes, but my regular border chanter (which I think tends to be similar in volume to Moore’s and slightly less volume than Garvie’s, though I’m generalizing wildly. Set up can make any of the pipes change drastically) plays nicely with my smallpipe drones. I think I make my smallpipe drones a bit louder than some (I think because my smallpipe chanters are a bit louder than some), which might help with that.
A couple weeks ago I was trying out my border chanter with my smallpipe drones and was surprised at how good it sounded and thought, “geez this sounds decent, do I need to make different border drones?” Then I switched to the border drones and it was so much better. The border drones are a bit louder which helps, but also the tone chambers that we border pipe makers use in the ends of our drones (like highland pipe drones) really do take the edge off. They make the higher pitched border chanter sound better.
And lastly the pressure thing. Like other border pipe chanters out there, my border chanter plays at a very low pressure. My smallpipes are by no means hard to play, but definitely more pressure than my border pipes. But i use ezeedrone reeds in my drones, (as I believe garvie does?) and those suckers are so solid they don’t mind playing at either chanter’s pressure.
So, yes, there are border chanters that can play with smallpipe drones. I think you’d have similar results with most border chanters out there. I tell customers that ask this same question if you are mainly playing smallpipes and want the ability to sometimes be louder or get those lovely accidentals, then a set of smallpipes and a border chanter will work. But if you want the full border pipe sound you can’t get it without the border pipe drones.
Hope that helps.
Nate
Oh, and someone mentioned my “quieter” border chanter. That’s not for sale yet, still very much under development. What I said about my regular border chanter may or may not apply to the quieter one. We’ll just have to wait and see.
Nate
I have a Jon Swayne ‘Lowland’ chanter, somewhat quieter than the Garvie ‘session’ and Moore ‘reel’ chanters I used to have. But still it seems to be three or four times louder than either of my A smallpipes.
I’m playing the Swayne in a 100 year old set of Glen ‘3/4’ size drones. The drone/chanter balance is fantastic.
Since the so-called ‘border’ chanter has a volume halfway between that of an A smallpipe and the GHB, it only makes sense to use drones which are likewise halfway between in volume.
About pressure, my findings are exactly the same: my smallpipes have more backpressure and more overall pressure than my Swayne/Glen pipes.
My preferred set of smallpipes is a 100-year-old set of “miniature Highland pipes” with a modern A smallpipe chanter.
Looking at the Garvie bagpipe page (I have a set of his session pipes with the A border chanter and have a set of smallpipes on order from Lauriebeck- hence the question…) I found the following:
Separate Border Pipe Chanters
Our border pipe chanters have a reputation for tone quality, stability and the accuracy of their cross fingered notes, and as a result we sell many on their own, generally to be fitted to existing sets of pipes. Often players of smallpipes who want a louder chanter for playing in sessions fit them in their smallpipes for particular tunes. The smallpipe drones don’t support the border pipe chanter as well as border pipe drones, but where other instruments are playing this is not usually an issue. We can fit split stocks so the reeds on both the chanters are protected when not in use. We will match our chanter to the internal and external diameter of your chanter stock, unless the stock has a very narrow bore (under 5/8th inch 15.8mm) in which case please enquire regarding a solution for this problem.
So I’m obvously not the first person to consider this and it sounds like I should give it a try when all the bits are here…
Chris.
Well I myself much prefer to have my Swayne “Lowland” chanter fully supported by the rich tone of the “3/4” size drones (actually about 7/8 the size of a full-size Highland set). It would down out smallpipe drones, as Nigel mentions.
My fellow… Non-Uilleann Bagpipers…
I just have to say something about the confusing,
No-Men-Clay-T’ure ! (nomenclature)…
In truth, ANY Bagpipe that was played on the Border
between England and Scotland, was a “BORDER PIPE”.
Pipes in this category, include, but are NOT limited to:
The “Pastoral Pipes”
(which I think is a good candidate for
“The Northumbrian LONG-PIPE”),
The Scottish Lowland Pipes,
(also known as, Cauld Wind, Under-The-Oxter Pipes)
The Northumbrian “Half-Long” Pipes,
The pre-1975… Scottish Small Pipes,
The Simple Set of Northumbrian Small Pipes
(3 Drones and a keyless Chanter, played with a Bellows).
Lastly, that I can think of…
These 2 Drone Bagpipe illustrations,
where there’s a short, “Chair-leg” Drone,
with no Bell, tied by a chord to a longer
Drone with a trumpet-style Bell.
There’s 2 Scots illustrations that I know about,
and the one Northumbrian illustration,
I’m familiar with, which is:
“The Piper Winning the Horse Race”
on the cover of the Topic LP Record
“Cut and Dry Dolly”.
My friend Bob Thomas called his
reconstruction of this kind of Pipes,
his “Lancashire Pipe”.
I think of it as the Dutch / Flemish / Netherlands
Piping influence, on the East Coast of Britain.
I favor the Dutch artist BLOEMAERT, and his illustration
of such a Piper with his two Drone Bagpipes,
and strangely enough, the Bloemaert Piper is wearing a
“Cresent Moon” Badge, of the Percy’s…
(a symbol in honor of a Sarassin flag-pole that
“The Percy” captured, during one of the Crusades).
This Badge is hanging on his arm…suggestive…No???
Anyway…I call my one-and-only Bob Thomas
reconstruction, my “BLOEMAERT PIPES”!
As with the Germanic Bagpipe Revival of the 1970s,
which started off with copies from the illustrations of
Albrect Durer,
I think that it would be “MEAT”
to do “Bloemaert Pipes”,as well !
In conclusion, the terminology of any revival is not
standardized, but I urge you to ignore the Romantic term
“Border Pipes”…if you can !
Sean “on the border-line” Folsom
Sean and all,
I gave much thought as to what I would call the pipes in A with a conically bored chanter not too loud to play with fiddles that can cross finger accidentals that I make. I personally don’t mind calling them lowland pipes at all. I made them because I wanted to play a music with a living tradition which now includes playing these pipes. I’m from Maine and there is a strong influence there right now from Cape Breton. These A, louder than smallpipes, pipes have fit right into their tradition, because so many of their tunes are still pipe tunes in disguise. Unfortunately, they call them Border Pipes.
I wanted to call them Reelpipes to be honest, but Mr. Morrison has sort of usurped that. I know I’m just adding to the problem calling them Border Pipes. Historically they shouldn’t be called Border Pipes, i know. My only defense is that I’m only calling them what people call them.
It’s sort of like uilleann pipes I think. There are those that say they were never called uilleann pipes historically, but union pipes. But now people call them uilleann pipes. So now they ARE uilleann pipes.
I would gladly sign a petition with other makers of Border Pipes to stop calling them Border Pipes and call them something else. Calling them Border Pipes has it’s own problems. The people who play “Border” tunes say you aren’t playing Border Pipes unless you’re playing Border tunes. I love Border tunes, but I play with musicians that play cape breton tunes, so i play mostly Cape Breton Tunes.
Giving something a name is just so people know what you’re talking about when you call it that.
Maybe Fred’s pipes will get real popular and then I can call my pipes Reel Pipes too and people will know what I’m talking about.
Nate
Dear ELBOW
Yes I agree with you, call’em anything you want, as
you’re the Maker and Player of “Same” !
As a somebody who has been playing a Robertson
“Boy Scout” set of Northumbrian Half-longs since
September of 1973…
(when you couldn’t give those pipes away, as
NOBODY was interested in them, on EITHER SIDE
of the BORDER), I have MY preferences, to be sure !
Colin Ross sold that set,
(with a broken, but repaired Chanter) to me
for…(wait for it)… 65 quid…or $135 (1973) Dollars.
I guess that’s 1,350 USD now, as the US. Dollar erodes…
Sean THE HALF-LONG PIPER Folsom
P.S. Michael Hubbert (of Boonville) made an
A=440hertz Chanter for it, in 1996.
A lovely tone, alltogether ! S.F.
I play a set of garvie borderpipes with a split stock so I can also play a hamish moore smallpipe chanter too. There was a bit of tweaking of the drones involved but I can change chanters without having to retune. I have my borderpipe chanter set to quite a high pressure and the smallpipe one set to a normal pressure for that type of chanter.
I think the sound is good and the drones suit both chanters. I have a keyed smallpipe chanter from Ian Kinnear to pick up (when I’m back in Angus for more than 5 mins) and I’m planning on playing that chanter with the garvie drones too. It means I can switch chanters mid set and I find it very handy.
Dave
Sean you bring up a great point about the confusing nomenclature.
I read a long and detailed article once (don’t remember the author) which seemed to establish beyond doubt that the name “border pipe” is bogus. If I remember correctly, it was ONE family that had ONE old set of Lowland pipes, that said that they remembered somebody in the family calling them “border pipes”. From that humble beginning, the name has recently spread to cover what used to be called “Lowland pipes”.
Not that the term “border pipe” is universal: I owned three nearly identical chanters that were called three different things by their makers: a Hamish Moore “reel” chanter, a Garvie “session” chanter, and a Jon Swayne “Lowland” chanter.
What interests me (and is not really off-topic, I dont’ think) is the four sizes of pipes made by the top Highland pipe makers in the 19th century.
Glen’s 1849 list shows:
I. The Great Highland or military bagpipe
II. Half-size or reel pipe, blown with the mouth or bellows
III. Lovat reel pipe, blown with the mouth or bellows
IV. Highland miniature pipe
By 1860 this had changed to:
I assume that the “half-size or reel pipe” is what we today call the “3/4 pipe”, which actually are about 7/8 the size of the Great Highland bagpipe. Many old sets exist, often mounted in engraved silver as per these 19th century pricelists.
But what was the “Lovat reel pipe” or “second-size reel pipe” which was always offered with bellows as an option? Which was offered only ivory mounted? Which had a cost intermediate between the “half-size pipe” and the “miniature pipe”?
By the 20th century this “second size reel pipe” had dropped off all the maker’s lists, leaving only the “Great Highland”, “half-size or reel”, and “miniature” pipes.
Just to show, here are my three sizes, the Great Highland, an old set of Glen “half-size or reel” pipes (what today are called 3/4 pipes), and an old set of “miniature Highland pipes” (what today are called smallpipes):
The “miniature” set is fully mounted in real ivory, exhibits beautiful craftsmanship, and was purchased on Ebay for $200.
Thanks Richard !
Your information about 19th century
Scots Pipe Makers’ Lists is good to know.
Great line up of your Pipe photos, as well !
The variety of choices for the customers
of that era, probably helped sell more Pipes,
than the rather limited offerings of
the mid-20th century.
There has (obviously) been a big change
in BAGPIPE NAMES…since the 1970s, and again,
Marketing Terminology has surely been a factor in
promoting more Pipe sales.
It’s not a bad thing, really, it’s just nothing
to get burnt up, flamed, or________ about !
“A Rose is still a Rose”…regardless.
It’s just that Sir Walter Scott “Border” romance
problem that I have…a personal failure on my
part, and wasn’t Sir Walter’s
“Minstrelsy Of The Scottish Border”
(song texts, but no music) due to his…
“Border Pipe” playing UNCLE ?
Sean “Frontier” Folsom
Now about the difference between the “half-size or reel pipe” and the “second size reel pipe”, I suspect that if we gathered together twenty or thirty old so-called “3/4 pipes” we would find that they could be sorted into two sizes:
-around 7/8 the size of a GHB
-around 3/4 the size of a GHB
and that voila! our mystery would be solved, the 7/8 being what they originally called “half-size or reel pipes” and the 3/4 what they called “second-size reel pipes”.
The last price list I can find that offers all four sizes is Peter Henderson’s 1905 list. The prices for ebony or cocus (no African blackwood then!) full mounted in ivory:
No1 Great Highland or Military bagpipe 10 pounds
No2 Half size pipe 6 pounds
No3 Second size reel pipe 5 pounds 10
No4 Miniature pipe 3 pounds 3
No bellows are offered on any of the pipes.
Very interesting indeed is Peter Henderson’s 1930 list:
Full size
Half and reel size (two names for the same thing, or two different things?)
Miniature size
Irish bagpipes (!)
A number of other makers’ lists from the 1920’s and 1930’s list “half size or reel size” in addition to full size and miniature.