Can any one tell me more about their fingering, sound, ? What did they in turn develop from? as they seem to have developed in to the Uilleann Pipes.
Are there any examples of crossovers between the three, Border, Uilleann ,pastoral.
Generally curious about these chanters, and in relation to the border and Uilleann , volume, tone etc
When the Unique UP chanter stock was developed ?
Is it generally accepted that the UP is a progression form the Pastoral pipes?
Hugh Cheape just published a book called Bagpipes: A National Collection of a National Treasure
In it he traces the history of bagpipes in Scotland primarily through an examination of the forensic evidence – the bagpipes that still exist, and various written sources. There is a chapter on pastoral pipes. IIRC he seems to think that they were developed in cities in Scotland as an attempt to bring the bagpipe into popular (i.e., classical, or western-art) music. There’s a great engraving reproduced in the book of an (outdoor) opera production where the orchestra includes a pastoral pipe.
…though I have to say - like many writers of british ancestory - at least in his older books, Cheape’s somewhat narrowminded and focussed only on instruments and sources found in Scotland and other parts of the UK, and sometimes rather patriotic than logical… Haven’t read this latest book, though.
The theory You quoted, however, seems at least plausible. A similar evolution seems to have taken place with UP, considering the regs. They may have even come from Pastoral Pipes, since they’re a pretty recent invention. The UPs themselves, however, seem to be somewhat older and not necessarily connected to any Scottish pipes - or at least not closer than e.g. bellows-blown Scottish pipes to the much earlier French Musettes de Court…
Thats what I thought, but when you look at the historical evidence,now I know that the Pastoral scale has a natural C at the bottom. D mix, that the GHB repertoire can be played on them, take off the foot joint and you basically have a UP chanter . The various pipes clearly influenced each other, as did the makers. It was however , I think, In the pastoral / UP transformation time line ,for the pipes to be called ‘the Irish pipes’ lead by Irish Maker/s or player/s. The fact that the development of the instrument took place to a great extent in Edinburgh as well as Dublin is just a sign of the times.
Obviously lots is conjecture, but IMO its a very exiting time to be involved in the piping world. new inventions, advanced techniques , old documents, freedom of information, new breeds of makers, recording, communication networks. The amount and quality of knowledge available to anyone with the patience and persistence to search for it is amazing. I feel incredibly blessed to be a small part of this renaissance in piping..
I haven’t read his older books. The current book is primarily based on the collection of the Scottish national museum, but he does reference to other collections in Scotland and also in other parts of Europe and in North America as well. But it is a book about Scottish bagpipes.
I think Scottish pipers (in particular Highland Pipers) tend to try to create their history by looking only at the sources that specifically mention Highland Bagpipes, as if the pipes and the men and women who played them were not part of a larger cultural environment (let alone a larger musical environment). “Not invented here..”
Ross Anderson’s music page has some pastoral pipe resources including Geoghegan’s tutour. Scroll down about halfway. The page is stuffed to the brim with great piping information of an academic, antiquarian variety.
I’d just like to point out that all the youtube clips you posted are of pipes that are not actually pastoral pipes. The Jon Swayne pipes are his Border pipes based on French Pipes. And, though the maker of Remi’s pipes calls his pipes pastoral pipes, I’ve been told by Jon Swayne that the maker confesses that they are also based on French Pipes.
Well - as right as You are - we shouldn’t forget, that the only serious difference between a french cornemuse-chanter and a borderpipe-chanter is the 2nd thumbhole, which is an invention of 20th century only…
Also, there was no real difference between early GHB and all the other 2-drone-conical-chantered pipes to be found since the middle-ages anywhere in Europe - the first significant change to make GHB into an instrument of it’s own was the addition of the 3rd drone - afaik, not before 18th century!
The typical thing about scottish pipes is not the instrument itself - they’re just typical western-european bagpipes - but the technique of playing them!
That the Great Highland Bagpipe is a Victorian invention. Not that there weren’t other three drone, conical bore chanter instrument in Scotland previously, but that the instrument as we know it today was developed by makers in Edinbourgh and other cities who probably learned instrument making via mainstream instrument makers (i.e., oboe makers). In fact, he’s dug up a really interesting bit of verse written by a bard around the turn of the 19th century, lamenting the accendency of the new-style bagpipe (created to suit the needs of the piping competitions).
Thanks for the links. I do have HC new book but I dont think he makes those assertions HP.
Though of course its pretty clear that the old GHB had 2 drones. See ‘dance to the piper’ 'lots is conjecture of course. Some will be right some wrong, and some we will never know! but its a very interesting subject for me and all your posts are very welcome. I have a pretty comprehensive library but all suggestions are welcome for further reading. The NPU offer an article discussing HC book and his reply… cheers
You might be right, but those are the impressions I took away from it. Take a look at the last two or three pages again. I had to read it twice before what he was saying really sunk in.
He also says that evidence is pretty scant and there could be other explanations.
I did HP. What I get from that is that, as we basically know, the pipes have gone through a process of evolution, as is to be expected. The hand carved pipes and treadle lathe made pipes were superseded by a louder, bigger version, the Great drone is added etc. But this doesnt take away from the evidence we have of pipes, with the mixolydian scale, and drones as being a part of the ‘Celtic’ Heritage. The oldest traditional tunes I know of, are old Irish Clan marches. O’Neills march, March of the King of Laoise, |Brian Boru’s march. I feel confident in saying these are pipe tunes for the Piob mhor . The Old Celtic \Culture of Ireland and Scotland are inexorably linked. The Irish sea being the Highway linking them. IMO these pipes came up the coast of Spain From Africa a long time ago, do I have proof? No.
Pastoral pipes however are meant to be the main focus of the is discussion! What do we know of them?
cheers
I gather there were 2 different fingerings for them during their evolution, ’ a Highland’ fingering, and an’ Uilleann’ fingering. in the Highland [H] fingering C is bottom hand closed, back D covered and top hand open. UP fingering has back D open, first finger of each hand open. rest covered.
C# has the Highland fingering back D open, bottom hole of top hand open rest covered. UP C# fingering has back D closed top hand open bottom closed .
Now this is possibly a stage in their evolution as makers adjusted their chanters to their own liking or that of their customers, or maybe 2 different streams?
Also I gather the chanter basically a development of the Baroque oboe, of which I know nothing.
Cheape doesn’t dispute that there were pipes in the general highland pattern in older times.
The way I see his premise is: at what point did an instrument you could play in competition today come to exist?
It seems that that happened in the late 1700’s and early 1800’s. The exact same thing happened with fiddles. There was a bowed, stringed instrument called a fiddle in Scotland starting in or around 1600. When the modern Italian violin arrived in Scotland, it completely displaced the original fiddle, but the name stuck. You can play all the old music on the new instrument. Well there were instruments in Scotland in the 1600’s and 1700’s that went by the name of GHB (at least by Joseph MacDonald’s time) and had the same general form, but they weren’t the same instrument any more than the Italian violin is the same instrument as that nasty old fiddle.
It’s related to the topic at hand, becuase, according to Cheape, the same people who developed the first modern GHB were probably also the same people who made the pastoral pipes (Robertson and MacDonald, for instance), which, as you say, draw on oboe making techniques. They probably used that same skill set to develop the modern GHB (creating it from prior bagpipes that go back at least a hundred years earlier). They were skilled and trained professional instrument makers.
Yeah, fair enough, I think you are probably right. But, the evidence provided in B Shears ‘Dance to the piper’ I think needs to be taken into account in this discussion. Its certainly an excellent book full of interesting research and highly pertinent detail. Do you have a copy? If not Get it, It will make a good Xmas present for the piper in your life
An underlying issue would be; at what point does one thing become another through evolution? It must b a continuum surely? A slow and gradual development perhaps more rapid at certain localized hubs such as Edinburgh and Dublin.
It seems the Pastoral pipes transformed from the open pipe to a closed/open pipe. the UP, at what point was a pastoral pipe with the footjoint removed, a Uilleann pipe?
But in the case of the 2 drone Piob Mhor becoming the 3 Drone Piob Mhor… I think they are the same instrument effectively.
I just ordered “Dance to the Piper.” Says it will arrive after Christmas. Thanks
It’s not a question of how many drones it has (just like what makes a violin a violin isn’t how many strings it has). That’s part of it, but not all of it. It’s also how it sounds, how it responds, and so forth. That would be true of the UP/PP too.
Listening to Ross Anderson’s talk answered all the questions I had, I think. That was exactly what I was looking for and my thanks go to Nate ‘Elbow piper’ !!
I guess, it would be highly interesting for both of You to visit Mr. Robson in Heartburn/Northumberland with his extensive collection of Robertson Pastoral, UP and both of them double-chanters and complete sets. Unfortunately, this is not my speciality - I am more interested in the general evolution of pipes in all parts of the world, so I just listened and took a few photos. But Mr. Robson, high in his eighties, will be more than prepared to give You any help he can give. I personally was most impressed by a set of NSP, still keyless and probably open or half-open fingered, but yet bellows-blown, dating from (probably) about 1560 - the oldest set yet to be found…
Haven’t read this latest book, though. 
I have a pretty comprehensive library but all suggestions are welcome for further reading. The NPU offer an article discussing HC book and his reply… cheers
What do we know of them?