It has been mentioned in another thread (one which I’d rather not muddy with such questions, hence my starting a new thread…although, really, if you must know, I’m still wanting permission to call Tal, “Tal” and if I hijack his thread he may never let me), that it is no longer necessary to use a period when writing Mr. or Mrs. I personally have never encountered such a thing, and find it to almost be blasphemous, but I’d like to see where such a thing has been introduced. Mr. (as well as Mrs.) is an abbreviation, which when shortened would require the proper punctuation…in this case, a period at the end of it. How on earth did this grammatical requirement become archaic?
no, I really have nothing better to do than post silly thread such as this one. Thank you for noticing
It isn’t exactly a requirement. In America, “Mr.” would not raise an eyebrow, whereas in the UK it may well do. The trend in the UK has been to drop the full stop in recognition of the fact that it serves no useful purpose. The fact that the last letter of the supposed word abbreviated, “Mister,” is present in the abbreviation has helped towards the full stop’s demise, as has the fact that the two related terms “Mrs” and Ms," though they look like abbreviations, are not actually short for anything at all.
For me, “Mrs.” (or “Mrs”, as you will - oops. There’s me and that comma-after-quotemark thing again ) was always an abbreviation for “Missus”, and “Ms.” an abbreviation for the politically correct “Miz”.
“Mrs” cannot possibly be an abbreviation of “missus,” as there is no letter r in “missus.” Likewise, “Ms” cannot be an abbreviation of “Miz,” as there is no letter z in “Ms.”
Incidentally, note the constructions in bold letters. Even you would have to admit that a sentence ending with …“missus”. would be ludicrously illiterate, and one ending with …“Ms.”. would be even worse. I hope you can see it. Strictly speaking, I should have omitted those commas after “missus” and “Miz” above, but how else can I teach you this?
I have never regarded “Ms,” or “Miz,” as you put it, as politically-correct, with the pejorative undertones that the accusation implies. It seems quite right and proper to me that women, like men since time immemorial, should be able to use a title that does not reveal their marital status. This is just fair play, not political correctness.
So in Britain, “Mrs.” isn’t pronounced “missus”? It is here, the “R” notwithstanding.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say “illiterate”, especially as regards "…“missus”. ending a sentence. “Quirky” I’d admit to. You may convince me yet. Rest assured that I totally get your good intentions and appreciate them. As I’ve said, I know the convention, and I see the point you’re making with Ms."..
Man. That’s three periods/full stops one after the other, now.
Then we would pronounce “mistress,” not “missies.” In speech it’s usual to use either the abbreviation (“pee emm’s Question Time”) or say the whole thing in full (“Prime Minister’s Question Time”). I can’t think of any sort of middle-way examples in which the pronounced version doesn’t reflect both the abbreviation and the full form.
anyhow its l8 this end and beds’ calling and I ca’nt cope with anymore of this stuff about full stop’s and all esp as you yank’s keep calling them periods so whats that all about then! The carboniferous???!
Nah, makes perfect sense. Mistress > missus (or /mIstrEs/ > /mIs@s/ if you want teh IPA) is a really easy sound change. You see that kinda thing all over the world in language change- boatswain > bo’sun for a closer-to-home example. Or Latin magister > mister, with a whole stop (even tho’ it is a voiced stop) dropping out. Or Gospel coming from Old English Gódspel (hmph, can’t get macrons), meaning “good news”.It’s thought that word “lay” (or was it “lie”? eitehr way), IIRC, came frm an PIE word that went something like “legeionom”.
Fowler distinguished between abbreviations formed by truncating a word after the first few letters, and those formed by dropping letters from the middle of the word. He recommended placing a period after the former kind, but none after latter. Mr for Mister is the latter kind, and no period should be used. Write Capt. for captain, but Cpl for corporal, doz. for dozen, but cwt for hundredweight (remember those?). Fowler seems to have been widely followed in Brit. usage but less so in Am. English.
In American English usage is confused on this point, and even top authorities, like Garner, eschew formulating rules. The most that can be said is that using a period after Mr. or Mrs. is viewed as traditional or old-fashioned, while omitting the period may seem modern, and even a Britishism.
Well, I wouldn’t want to be accused of Britishism, now would I?
So, if I am understanding this correctly (at this late hour), the usage of a period in such abbreviations as Mr. and Mrs. is more American? Other countries don’t use this? Could this be compared to the usage of a comma in numbers over 10,000 (we Americans use the comma, and it is my understanding that in other countries it is written 10 000 instead, sans the comma) ?
Dear Izzy,
There was no danger of hijacking my topic because it was WOMBAT’S topic. I must commend to you the recent Bloomf. post above.
I must re-iterate here that, taking account of usages of English among the old fashioned and the new fashioned speakers and the bifurcation of your Atlantic, the vagaries of Irish and Indian English as well as the quaint yet proper fossilizations of it in certain ex colonial quarters of the Pacific and Australasia, the overriding opinion of professorial usage experts is that the period is optional and that the absence of it is preferred where an abbreviation includes the last letter of the word being abbreviated. This was already explained by me in the other topic as was the optionality.
The wash out is that you won’t find me correcting you if you prefer to write the period but beware those who would correct me for not using it. I have not used the period after Mr or Mrs (short for MISTRESS - see your Oxford dictionary Mr Shaw!) since my early years at Australian schools in the 1960’s.
And please don’t start a topic about St, the abbreviation for Street. Is the t in it the first t or the last t, eh what? Such a topic would need the blessings of St. Jude.
Yes, Mrs used to be Mistress - I remember it well. People have become so slovenly in their speech, it is a sheer disgrace. I say, bring back the title “Goodwife”! And that being none of a couple, a Wife being a woman of good standing.
The title Ms is an abbreviation. It means “manuscript”.
Aye it was that creature Fowler, and his fellow Partridge, bringing in these neologisms… I mean, rationalising the archaic habits of written language.
Such a topic would need the blessings of St. Jude.