While I agree with some of what has been said, I respectfully disagree with other things that have been said, and in other cases I am having a hard time understanding and would like some clarification so I may understand better. If you can’t stand religion, then you might not want read any further.
What is going on in the Middle East is all about religion, in fact I would go as far as saying it is of biblical proportions for that is where this ancient conflict is rooted; clear back to Genesis. It is my understanding that many of the Muslims of this region claim decent from Abraham. When Abraham and his wife, Sarah, found themselves childless, Sarah gave her Egyptian handmaid to Abraham so that at least Abraham could have an heir. So Abraham had a son named Ishmael with the handmaid, Hagar. Then later, he ends up having a son, Issac, with his wife Sarah. The Lord said to Abraham that Issac will be the heir and that he (God) would establish his convenant with Issac and his descendants. Ishmael would not be heir or partaker of this convenant, but the Lord said that he would bless Ishmael in so much that his seed would create another large nation. There was contention between Hagar and her son against Sarah and Issac because of this and Hagar and Ishmael ended up being cast out. There are Muslims that claim their ancient father, Ishmael, had his birthright unjustly taken from him. Thus, they hate the Jews and lay claim to the land of Israel which they see as their proper inheritance, but the Jews see that land as their inheritance given to them by God. It may sound silly to have such conflict today stemming from something that happened so long ago, but they take it very seriously and there are those on both sides who are more than willing to die for their causes.
The extreme Muslims take it so far as not only wanting the whole land of Israel to themselves, but they see anyone who does not share their religious viewpoints as their mortal enemy. They see it as their “God given” duty to spread their religion though out the world by all means necessary, even by force and violence. If you don’t agree with them then you are an infidel in league with the devil in their minds, and they have no problem with killing infidels or blowing themselves up to kill infidels which, in their minds, furthers their cause.
These extremists are often referred to as suicide bombers when they blow themselves up in an effort to kill others. Strange term in my mind. They aren’t suicidal, if they were depressed and wanted to commit suicide, there are many fine buildings to jump from. They are however, very determined, willing to die for what they see as the greater good. Admittedly, their idea of greater good is quite distasteful to much of the rest us. I’ve heard people call these extremists insane for blowing themselves up, for dying as they do. But don’t we all have something we are willing to fight and die for. Our family? Our freedom? Our country? Our home and land? Our self preservation? And with some, even money? It’s a fickle soul indeed who can think of nothing that they would be willing to fight and die for. Some things are worth dying for, as many of those who have fought and even died for the freedoms we enjoy in our country know all too well.
Many have died protecting our freedoms so that we might have the choice to worship or not, as we choose. The freedoms to speak our minds, to have the freedom to disagree. The freedom to choose for ourselves our own path in life. I believe, in my religion, that there was a war in heaven fought over this freedom to choose. God held a great council, to prepare a way for those who went to earth to be able to return to His presence. Satan volunteered basically saying send me and I will force everyone be good at all costs and not one soul will be lost. One third of the entire host of heaven agreed with him. Then Christ stood up saying send me and I will do whatever God asks me to so to help make a way possible. Satan and his third was cast out because the real God does not force everyone to follow him. I believe this life was supposed to be about choosing the best we could what path we would take to prove if we were worthy of the blessings in store in the next life. We had learned all we could in the spirit world and now it was time for the final exam to see if we could move on to the next grade so to speak. Why do I mention this? Because I see it laughable when the extreme Muslims refer to us here in America as the great Satan. We have the freedom to choose our beliefs here in America; that freedom of choice is as God would have it, even if some of the choices we make aren’t that great. We might be a country with some problems but we aren’t at Satan’s level yet. Satan is the one who wants to force and control everyone and everything no matter the cost. The extreme Muslims are the ones who desire to force their religion on others at the point of death, which is much like Satan’s plan. Tragically, terrible things have been done in the name of religion. They thought they were doing God’s will, but were deceived. Anyhow, that’s what I believe.
As for OBL and his supporter’s demands: stop supporting Israel, remove of the sanctions against Iraq, and remove of U.S.'s military bases in the region. Going back on this I would agree with much of what has been said on the following basis. I’m tired of seeing our troops being spread out all over the world as if they were some kind of world police force. I would like to see most of our troops brought home to build up more defense here at home. We should only be in other country’s at the invitation of that country because they asked for our help. Unfortunately that is not likely going to happen not only because of the choices our government makes, but because of our ties to the United Nations. We (along with other countries) have a deal with them that we supply them with so much money, arms, and soldiers. The UN then takes these supplies and the soldiers and uses them as they see fit, even sending them places where they have little business being. A good number of our armed men and women are in fact not serving under the American flag, under an American general or sergeant. They are “on loan” for a time to the UN and during that time are under UN jurisdiction. They are accountable to and report to the UN, not the US during that time. They serve wherever the UN sends them and serve under the command of foreign generals, sergeants. etc. And if they die they die as UN soldiers, for the UN’s cause, not as American soldiers fighting for America. As I understand it, we have bases in the Middle East not only because we want them there, but because the UN wants them there. The sanctions against Iraq are UN created sanctions, simply enforced with support from the US and others. The US might come out and say we should lift the sanctions which would help but that would only go so far… they could not be officially lifted until the UN approved and lifted the sanctions.
As for Israel. I don’t see Israeli children blowing themselves up in Palestinian markets at the height of rush hour in an attempt to indiscriminately kill everyone they can. Does Israel not have the right to defend themselves? Yes, perhaps they go too far in doing so at times. But what do you think would happen if we found ourselves in a similar situation? A group with an agenda who are willing to die for it. Who had been or felt that they had been dealt with unjustly. Say, they wanted the state of California and felt entitled to it somehow, wanted all US citizens to leave the state and hand it over to them. We of course say no. They send suicide bombers into American cities, down into the subways at rush hour, into malls during the crowded rush of the holidays, killing everyone they can regardless of age, race, or sex. 9-11 was bad enough. Imagine random suicide bombing happening here on a fairly regular basis, and the terror and strain the average person would feel trying to go about their daily activities. I’d imagine that the government would do everything possible to stop the bombings. That means targeting those who are responsible for the bombings. In an desperate effort to stop the bombings, there would surely be problems. Those that are supporting the bombings live among us, are hiding among those who are innocent. People wind up being unjustly targeted, even killed. Accidents, or the purposeful efforts of overzealous officials. Soldiers in the streets tying to protect the people in general, checking those who look suspicious. That’s what happens when the war is on your own turf.
Israel wanting more land? I think they should be grateful with what they have got. On the other hand, I think they should be allowed to have a place to live in and around Jerusalem. They have a claim to the land to. It is also my understanding that Israel asked for our help, and I think it’s okay if we give it. There are those in the middle east who hate Israel, who would like nothing better than to wipe the Jews there off the face of the earth. For the extremists who hate Israel’s Jews and all that support them, having a Palestinian state is not going to be enough. Removing our support and our military bases is not going to be enough. Lifting sanctions on Iraq is not going to be enough. They aren’t that interested in compromise. It’s like a real mean bully, that threatens you, wants your money, your lunch, and for you to do his homework or else. You give in and they want more. You give in more thinking it will appease them and they will be happy, but it’s not enough and they push you around and demand more. Totalitarianism is unbending. It takes what it can get by any means possible, then lies, manipulates, and threatens so it can get more shutting all else out. It’s goal is complete power and control enforced by torture, violence, and death. It’s evil, even if it disguises itself behind the face of something that claims to be good, as it often does. OBL’s extremist supporters have admitted that they want Israel and the Jews utterly gone. They want to spread their twisted ideology everywhere they can, whatever it takes. At some point you have to say no and stand up to the bully. The only other option is submission and I think death would be better than to simply submit to live forever under some OBL type of totalitarian regime.
On the other hand, I don’t like the idea of just going over there and forcing our hand either. It’s too much like jumping up and down on a hill of red ants for me. Yet something does have to be done. I don’t have any real answers to speak truly. I don’t think there are any pleasant answers to something like this. But I do wish that we would put more effort into planning to defend ourselves better instead of having our troops spread all over the globe. I hate war, but defending yourself is necessary. Yet it seems like there should be a better way of defending ourselves than aggressively blowing up Afghanistan. I wish that those in the Middle East could just learn to live in peace. I’ve heard it said that it’s going to take them loving their children more than they hate each other. But all I have is my wish of peace. I fear it’s going to get uglier before it gets better.
On 2002-11-24 17:59, MurphyStout wrote:
I think his level of hypocrisy is unbelievable. His own record on human rights, and women’s rights is abominable. He has absolutely no leg to stand on. I deem him one of the worst people to ever walk the earth (right up there with Hitler and Reagan)
Okay Stout, are you comparing Ronald Reagan to Hitler? If so I am a bit confused. I can think of presidents whom I would consider worse than Reagan, and even the worst presidents we’ve had can hardly hold a candle compared to how bad Hitler was, in my opinion. Am I missing something here? If so, I’d like to know where you are coming from on this so I might better understand. Thanks!
Gosh! Sorry here, I didn’t start out with the intention of rambling on so much. Was going to say even more, but I think I’d better stop here. I usually stay away from political discussions on the board, guess I’m making up for all the times I’ve kept my mouth shut.
So I will close by saying: I know that politics and religion can be real touchy hot topics. If I offend anyone by my views I apologize as my intention was not to offend, but only to add to the discussion. Please remember that what I’ve said is simply my opinion and I completely support the right of others to have their opinions as well. It was said and has been said before that C& F is not the place for such a discussion. If it were truly so, threads would be locked on a more regular basis. I actually appreciate the wide variety of topics we talk about here, not just about whistles but about everything. We are all (well mostly) adults here, and I like to think that we are civil enough to handle such a discussion. The topic clearly stated “OT: Important if you are interested in current politics/western conflict with the Muslim world.” So if there are people who don’t like talking politics or religion (generally the mention of one religion, in this case Muslims, leads to talking of other religions) then this thread can be skipped over. I’ve even seen it said before that just having the message on the board is bad enough. Perhaps. But you know what, I have been offended by some of the conversations, topics, jokes that have occurred on this board to (by topics that have not been politics or religion). Things that I thought were offensive or simply in poor taste. But I’m okay with that, because I respect the forum we have going here and the rights of others to talk about things that I may not like or disagree with. And when I run into a thread I don’t like, I don’t say take it somewhere else, I just try to not read it again. Works for me anyhow.
Peace be with you all,
Sara
