Looking for ideas on what to do with a C nat that needs a bit of variation. My focus is on the C at the start of the B part of O’Dea’s jig, but it could be anywhere.
Thanks in advance,
I usually articulate (attack) on the C nat .. since I use a Classical Grip. But I’ve heard that players with piper’s grip have more possibilities on the ornamentation in this note. Since it’s more confortable to use a Tap or a Short Roll I guess ..
Cross fingered C natural. ‘Cut’ by tapping on G and Fsharp (helps to have D closed).
‘Tap’ by tapping on B. I confess I tend to leave it alone.
Becomes much easier with a thumb hole or C natural key.
I think it’s basically impossible to generalize.
Looking specifically at O’Deas on The Session for the first time, I’d probably either:
o Play it as-is, maybe a bit of finger vibrato.
o Use it as a good place to take a breath: A2B|c z c {d}cBA|
o Fill it with a neighboring tone or harmonic tone: e.g. |cdc {d}cBA| or |cGc {d}cBA|
o Roll it, if you’re into C rolls (I’m not).
My usual caveat: I’m a whistle player, not flute, so your flute mileage may vary.
Thanks for those two suggestions.
You might ask why not just leave it as is? After playing it a few times, I just had the strong feeling that it needed something to make it pop out - it’s a key note for the tune, it’s what makes the B part stand out. On my flute (Burns FF) the C nat doesn’t really stand out. I just realised I am already unconciously doing a bit of finger vibrato.
I have never tried rolls on C before. the c-b-c-d-c roll (on a cross-fingered c) sounds slightly odd to me, but it is probably ok if I keep the articulations light and quick.
??? I’m afraid that doesn’t make sense to me, Diego!
Jumbuk, I wasn’t playing-familiar with this tune, though I do have the Stockton’s Wing rendition referenced on The Session (haven’t listened to it for yonks, though!). I’ve had a quick tootle at it from the dots and am inclined to agree with you that that dotted crotchet C nat that starts the B music just begs to be rolled and the ensuing C quaver that starts the next triplet needs to be tapped. I think if I learned the tune, with familiarity I would use assorted variations as others have suggested on some “hits” , but my basic/default version would be a full long roll plus tap on that C natural. There has been plenty of previous discussion of and instructions on how to do C rolls on C&F (both Flute and Whistle Fora) in which I’ve had my two-pennorth - you should find them using the search function (to save me writing out destructions yet again! 
). Here’s one such. FWIW, I’d do a roll most of the time on whistle too.
On your point about the held C nat sounding weak, I see you’re playing a
keyless flute. If one has a C key it should be fine played with that, even pushable. I suggest you check whether you are using the optimum C nat cross fingering for your flute/the musical context: don’t assume it will be oxx ooo!
I think you’ll find, Mr “theflute”, that the correct English plural of forum is “forums”. [sniff] 
And anyway, give us the “destructions” again, please. I know they’re on here plenty of times before, and you’ve even sent them to me by PM, but do you think you could set them out here, simply, and in a way that a moron like me can not only understand but actually produce something playable from?
Um … p-l-l-l-l-l-l-ea-ea-ea-ea-ea-se
@benhall1
As an erstwhile student of Latin, I prefer the Latin plural!
And I really haven’t got time this evening. (Oh, and I see you’re back on-line??). Really, that link I gave above is probably about as clear as I’m going to get - it gives the oxo fingering sequence and then you just have to practice it! If that doesn’t work, you’ll have to come visit for a lesson!
I’m an erstwhile student of Latin, too. But “forum”, in its present useage, is an English word. Unless, perhaps, you can direct me to some ancient Roman websites. Maybe Caesar had one? Anyway, ner ner ner.
And no - I’m not back online. I’m stealing work time again … 
If something is on more than 1 forum then is it not a dative plural (don’t normally end in ‘a’ anyway)?
Don’t know the plural of oxo (gravy maybe).
Cs Nat. C Nats. CNata
Where’s the missing sense there dear friend?
d(e) nada
Nothing wrong with your English here, Diego (unlike my Latin!). I didn’t mean you had expressed yourself badly but that the content of what you said did not make sense to me. I cannot see any physical reason why Pipers’ hold should give greater facility at L hand ornamentation nor that a classical/Rockstro type hold should limit it. Poor technique and unhelpful tension in either (or any) style of hold can cause difficulties, yes, but these things are all perfectly do-able either way. Piper’s hold does not give you more fingers or different holes to open and close. There should not be any difficulty in executing any conceivable L hand ornament with a classical hold not solvable by practice and good posture. (I am aware that some folk claim such things, of course, and that some report difficulty with L1 & 2 cuts and taps in either hold, but those problems are not intrinsically due to the hold, rather to the individual’s execution of it.)
Nothing wrong with your English, Diego (unlike my Latin!). I didn’t mean you had expressed yourself badly but that the content of what you said did not make sense to me. I cannot see any physical reason why Pipers’ hold should give greater facility at L hand ornamentation nor that a classical/Rockstro type hold should limit it. Poor technique and unhelpful tension in either (or any) style of hold can cause difficulties, yes, but these things are all perfectly do-able either way. Piper’s hold does not give you more fingers or different holes to open and close. There should not be any difficulty in executing any conceivable L hand ornament with a classical hold not solvable by practice and good posture.
Merci beaucoup for the language compliments !! ..
I really can’t tell my experience with piper’s grip and ornamentation, since I was taught by a Mary Bergin’s disciple who lived lots of years in Galway, to better play with classical grip. (Great contradiction because she plays the flute with piper’s grip hehe).. And she told me that for some ppl it was easier to tap the B note in the C nat using P-Grip. I’ve tried using that ornament and it’s not THAT confortable for me, so I prefer articulation.
Hmmm, has any one tried a c roll this way: c g c f# c?
oxx ooo
xxx ooo
oxx ooo
xxx xoo
oxx ooo
It’s just something that I stumbled upon. It’s not great for those nice, leisurely, burbly rolls that can be so nice on stressed notes, but can be effective as a filler.
Just curious.
Mark
PS Diego, your English is far better than many native speakers/writers.
PS Diego, your English is far better than many native speakers/writers.
Aww that’s so nice from you, thanks 
Thanks for the link - I guess I should have searched first! I have been using OXXOOO or OXXXOX for Cnat, with the second one sounding slightly better. I haven’t tried OXOXXX - will give it and the associated roll a try tonight.
I use the “classical grip” and have no trouble doing rolls on Cnat thus:
oxx oox
oxx xxx
oxx xxo
xxx oox
oxx oox
but sometimes it’s hard for me, in some reels, to get that in there quickly enough (I’m thinking of the 2nd part of Bunker Hill for example).
So kind of by accident I came up with a cranlike thingy that, up to speed, sounds kinda like a roll but’s much easier to play:
oxx oox
oxx xxx
oxx oxx
oxx xxx
oxx oox
It sounds like two middle D cuts on that Cnat, but really goes by so fast that it just sounds like a little cran thingy. Anyhow I use this instead of Cnat rolls now in reels.