No one is being forced to discuss anything. All kinds of threads go by here and I won’t discuss a single thing in them.
If I don’t want to talk about something, I don’t talk. It’s that easy.
You betcha! I’ll post a pic of me in it when I get my webspace back up! 
I wouldn’t be so positive in feeling that “all of the facts” will be presented in the near future.
We don’t have all the facts on the Iraq War, or Afghanistan, and we debate/discuss them.
Believe me, I’m not making light of either this person’s life or the actions of the police. I have my feelings, but like you say, I’m waiting for more facts to come out. That being said, I don’t mind others discussing it, if they feel so inclined.
Oh, and really, my earlier post was an attempt at a bit of humor (humour). A lousy attempt, apparently.
All the Best, Tom
Tony Blair apologised to the man’s family, the brazilian government and released a statement saying the govenment is sorry for the death of an innocent man.
What more facts do you want? They decided to lodge five bullet in the head of man down, at close range and shot an innocent. That’s the long and short of it.
I can see the policemen had to decide something in a split second but it’s very dangerous to make this sort of desiscions when nerves are frayed and the situation as thense as it is. I can also imagine well that a lot of not white looking people would be nervous to go anywhere with a bagpack, or go anywhere at all, just to avoid confusion. Which in itself can produce all sort of new polarisation in society. Head lines in the tabloids like ‘One Down, Three to go’ as appeared after the shooting won’t be helpful either.
Peter Laban wrote:
“…Which in itself can produce all sort of new polarisation in society.”
Good Gosh! There’s actually something that Cincinnati is BEFORE the curve on, cuz we’ve had this for years now! Our police are constantly being second and third guessed, they can’t make a move without having every angle scrutinized again and again, and if one lawsuit doesn’t pan out, then another follows. And the politicos NEVER show support for the police, no matter what.
I certainly hope London, etc , do not become like this, too. It basically ties the hands of police, and the ultimate outcome is an increase in crime.
I certainly hope London, etc , do not become like this, too. It basically ties the hands of police, and the ultimate outcome is an increase in crime.
There’s no evidence that police reluctance to kill increases crime.
I heard the “apology” like that is gonna do it. If the facts you state are the only ones that come out, I am in complete agreement with you. I mean, it does not appear that they shot him running away, correct? If it’s true than he was already on the ground, surrounded by officers, than I think that the actions were wrong and inexcusable.
All the Best, Tom
I actually was more thinking towards a whole part of society feeling victimized by the police (and public opinion) which can lead to all sort of nasty situations. Good example is how the new Northern Irish Police is trying to win the confidence of the catholic part of society after years of being the force of only one end of the street.
If that situation exists where you are, maybe there’s a reason fo it?
If policemen go around shooting people in the head I don’t think there can be enough second third etc guessing, it’s a highly dubious and undesirable situation if they start doing that.
Simon wrote:
“There’s no evidence that police reluctance to kill increases crime”
I’m not just talking about the police being reluctant to “kill” (your word) increasing crime. I’m talking about the everyday citizen being reluctant to cooperate with the police when a crime occurs, there-by allowing the perps to get away with it, and continue to repeat again and again. I’m talking about the everyday citizen putting the blame for crimes on police “incompentancy”, but the citizens not willing to take the time to call in suspicious activities, or to commit to showing up in court if warrents are sworn out. I’m talking about 40+ murders that have taken place in the city since January, and the police are hard pressed to begin solving a lot of them because the everyday citizen has heard over and over how the police are out to kill them, too.
I’m talking about the outright, blatant, disrespect that the officers have to contantly deal with, even when they are just driving around town doing their job.
When the criminals aren’t afraid of getting caught, or know they’ll just get a slap on the wrist if they do, it does cause crime to increase. I don’t have statistical numbers to back this up - just the observations I’ve seen from 20+ years in this neighborhood.
Police commisioner Ian Blair explained the policy, based on experiences in other conctries like Israel, is that a suspect is shot in the head to take him out, in case a bomb is worn on the body. He confrimed what was already said by eye witnesses: that the man was down when he was shot.
Peter wrote:
"If that situation exists where you are, maybe there’s a reason fo it? "
Yep - it’s due to media hype / organizations mouthing off / take your pick.
We constantly hear about the 15 African-Americans that have been killed by our local Police (this is over a 20-30 year timeframe). Yes, that IS a disturbing statistic, until you do a little digging for information. I don’t know every situation off the top of my head, but in one case, the perp was shot AFTER he killed two officers trying to serve a warrent. Another was shot after having several tazers shot into him, he was throwing cinder blocks and had a knife, had already injured several officers, and an autopsy showed he was hopped up on PCP and other things. A third was run over by a 12 year old who had been threatening a parking lot of loiterers (at 1 am on a school night) and when the officer tried to take the keys out of the car, the kid drug him more than 1000ft down the street - the officer managed to get one shot off before he was crushed. Another there is still debate 6 years after the fact as to whether it was the drugs in his system, or the handcuff position he was put in, that caused his death.
No matter what an officer does, from the most routine traffic stop, to answering a domestic call, to out and out dangerous incidents, they have to fill out paperwork concerning the race of the offender. And no matter WHAT the circumstances, there is always the possibility that the officer will be found guilty of “profiling”.
Oh - and if the OFFICER happens to be African-American (as two of the ones that were killed) - then all kinds of stories start that are untrue - one was that the white officer killed the other.
And when investigating crimes, the African-American officers are accused by white citizens of “bonding” with African-American criminals.
I wouldn’t be a police officer in this city for any amount of money.
This is going away fro mthe purpose of the thread but what was the percentage of black vs white people imprisoned in the US? As i said, a bit more going on there than media hype.
So far, all the bombs have been identically-constructed bag or backpack bombs.
Israel might have the expertise in dealing with waist-belt bombs, but those aren’t what the London bombers are using.
As far as I know, waist-belt bombs haven’t been used by any al qaeda bombers; their use has been limited to palestinians in Israel.
The reason for that is the massive security structure in Israel, in which Palestinians and their baggage is regularly searched. Any bomb larger than a belt is difficult to hide, so they use waist-belt bombs even though those are less effective and harder to make.
~~
The London bombers are under no such pressure, and are less sophisticated. They’re using backpacks because they can do more damage that way, and because the security presence in London doesn’t make it difficult to carry bags.
~~
So I think that the London police’s expectation that they’re facing waistbelt bombs, and their subsequent decision to shoot suspects in the head is quite literally overkill, and is a mistake.
I think that the adoption of Israeli tactics is an error; the british are facing a different enemy.
Was watching the news just now. The Brazilian mistaken for a bomber was shot, and this is official, eight times. Seven times in the head.
That will definitely take this thread in a new direction.
Best, Tom
It is worth mentioning that SO19, the British firearms unit kills innocent people every year, in fact unarmed cops kill people too, (‘restraining’ them in the cells with strangleholds etc.) This has just recieved more publicity due to the bombings.
Last year a Scottish carpenter was shot and killed in London, as he was carrying a recently repaired chair leg and someone called the police and said, ‘an Irishman is walking around with a shotgun’ !
…and I suppose, rightly or wrongly, that this recent innocent was totally innocent of any wrongdoing. Just had the misfortune of living in the wrong place and having dark skin. Yeah, I know, he ran from the police, which indeed is a dumb thing to do, even more so given what has happened over there recently. Still…
No, I’m not saying it’s ok to kill the folks in jail.
All the Best, Tom
I also didn’t want to give the impression that what happened in London is “ok” - if what we have is all true information.
I’m just commenting that the “second guess, police are always wrong, no matter what they do” attitude is an everyday thing here. And it gets very old, very quick. I know that there are officers that react wrong, but there’s also many that react correctly - just as there is in any profession. The “good” ones never get publicity. The “bad” ones get way too much.
But - I honestly don’t understand the thinking that causes someone to run from police. Even if you believe that the officers are “out to get you” - running is going to guarentee that something will happen, and too frequently it’s something deadly. HOW is that better than complying with orders?
But - I honestly don’t understand the thinking that causes someone to run from police. Even if you believe that the officers are “out to get you” - running is going to guarentee that something will happen, and too frequently it’s something deadly. HOW is that better than complying with orders?
We don’t know what the dead man was thinking, but it’s not necessarily obvious that every plain-clothed, armed man who shouts “police” really is one.
Police demand instant–or rather prompt–compliance with orders, but they’re extremely cavalier about proving their bonafides. Even when they finally haul out a badge, I’ve never yet seen a cop do anything more than wave it vaguely in the the arrestee’s direction. There’s no opportunity to actually look at it to verify that they really do have the legal right to order anyone around.
Do you have any idea what a genuine police badge is supposed to look like, so you can identify it on sight?
Me neither.
"Do you have any idea what a genuine police badge is supposed to look like, so you can identify it on sight? "
yes.
Simon, I spent 8 hours riding with an officer a couple of weeks ago. It’s a part of our “Citizen’s on Patrol” training, although ANY citizen that wants to can ask to arrange a ride-along. Officer Smith was extremely professional during every encounter I saw, including taking some pretty bad “mouth” from one group during a disturbing the peace run. He also had to stand there and listen to one person accuse him of siding with another because of race (he’s the one I referred to being accuse of “bonding” - it because a joke between us the rest of the day). I asked him why he became a cop - he said he honestly tried NOT to, but it kept coming back to him to do it. He’s very spiritual, and he truly believes that God has a purpose for him to be a cop so he can contribute to society. I also asked him why he became a city cop, instead of a suburb (which is where he grew up) or state trooper. He said because he is a single parent, he needed the steady, same hours that the city offers, instead of the changing shift hours that troopers and suburbs often have.