OK, I can identify the basic keys (D, G), but how do you know what key a piece of music is in?
I know it has to do with the sharps and flats, but it’s been long enough since my piano lessons I’ve forgotten how to tell…
Aodhan
Here it is…hey, I got SOMETHING from suffering through piano for 7 years…
NO sharps or flats: Key of C maj/A minor
1 sharp: G maj/E min
2 sharps: D maj/B min
3 sharps: A maj/F# min
4 sharps: E maj/C# min
5 sharps: B maj/G# min
6 sharps: F# maj/D# min
7 sharps: C# maj/A# min
1 flat: F maj/D min
2 flats: Bb maj/G min
3 flats: Eb maj/C min
4 flats: Ab maj/F min
5 flats: Db maj/Bb min
6 flats: Gb maj/Eb min
7 flats: Cb maj/Ab min
(Relative minor is always located 2 half steps [1 whole step] down from the major.)
If you don’t wanna memorize all that–I know I didn’t, heh–there’s another way. All ya have to know are the acronyms for the sharps and flats and how to find it from there. The acronyms spell out how sharps and flats are always listed, in order, in the key signature.
FCGDAEB - sharps - “Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Balogna”
BEADGCF - flats - just the sharps reversed, “Bead Greatest Common Factor” is how I remember it.
To find the major key from key signatures with SHARPS in it: Go forward one letter ALPHABETICALLY (not in the acronym) from the last (farthest to right) sharp and that’s the name of the key. (Ex: If the last sharp listed is F, the key is G. The G is not sharped; only key sigs with 6 or 7 sharps make the key sharp. [F#, C#.])
To find the major key from key sigs with FLATS in it: The second to last flat listed is the name of the key. (Ex: If the flats are B, E, and A, the key is Eb. The only key NOT flatted with flat key sigs is F.)
Hope that helped! I’m sure there are oodles of websites, if not.
Posts like Soineanta’s reply (a few posts ‘up’ in this thread) are what keep me coming back to the C & F Message Board. That is a lot of useful information all in one place. It reminded me that this music theory stuff can be approached by mere mortals.
Thanks for the useful information, which is now a Word document. I can go back and try to figure it out later.
Tom D.
(PS: Is this where I’m supposed to say how much I like my favorite whistle?)
(Relative minor is always located 2 half steps [1 whole step] down from the major.)
3 half steps, surely. 
Excellent summary though!
Jens
[ This Message was edited by: Jens_Hoppe on 2003-02-12 09:33 ]
Here’s a little rule of thumb for whistles :
Second major key (starting xxx ooo, using cross-fingered “C”) is one flat down from 1st major.
- D key (##) minus one flat gives #, i.e. G
- F (bb) minus one flat gives one flat, i.e. Bb.
It reminded me that this music theory stuff can be approached by mere mortals.
Thanks for the useful information..
It most certainly can, if I can get the hang of it. 
You’re very welcome!
3 half steps, surely. >
Doh! You’re right.. 3 half, one and a half whole steps. Oh well, A for effort, right?
On 2003-02-12 15:35, Soineanta wrote:
3 half steps, surely. >
Doh! You’re right.. 3 half, one and a half whole steps. Oh well, A for effort, right?
Hey, it was a great post! I learned a lot from it!
I’d like to thank my dog, my cats, my cats’ offspring, my comfortable fake Birkenstock sandals…
Just kidding. Actually, thanks should go out to my old piano teacher and current music teacher at school. Goodness knows I don’t particularly like either of them, but they taught me alot.
Thanks for all the kind words, it brightened my congested and feverish (I have a cold) day!
Well, this is fine for tunes based on the traditional major and minor keys, but as you’ll probably find, the majority of Irish tunes are in one of the following modes:
Major
Mixolydian
Dorian
So the scale info on sharps and flats may be misleading.
For example, if you look at a sheet music version of “Cooley’s Reel”, it will appear to be in D, with two sharps, but it actually in E Dorian mode. Note, that its also not in B-minor which would also have two sharps, being the relative minor of D.
So there are lots of combinations that don’t necessarily make sense if you’re already familiar with western major and minor keys:
Here’s a guide to the most common keys and modes:
D Major - 2 sharps
D E F# G A B C# D
D Dorian - No sharps
D E F G A B C D
D Mixolydian - 1 sharp
D E F# G A B C D
G Major - 1 sharp
G A B C D E F# G
G Mixolydian - No sharps
G A B C D E F G
A Major - 3 sharps
A B C# D E F# G# A
A Dorian - 1 Sharp
A B C D E F# G A
A Mixolydian - 2 sharps
A B C# D E F# G A
E Dorian - 2 sharps
E F# G A B C# D E
Here’s my decision process for hearing modes:
-
Establish the root tone, i.e. is the tune sitting on a D, G, A, E, or B drone
-
Does it sound bright and happy or dark and sad..
-
If bright and happy, its probably major or mixolydian mode
-
If dark, its almost always dorian mode
If choosing between major and mixolydian, you need to determine if the 7th tone of the scale is normal or flattened, i.e. in a D tune, is there a C or C-sharp being used. If its a flattened 7th tone, its generally mixolydian, other wise its generally major.
Of course many tunes change key or mode between A and B parts, or even within a part so you have to be very specific when talking about what keys tunes are in…
Cheers,
Michael
[ This Message was edited by: eskin on 2003-02-12 15:51 ]
Here’s a good site with info on keys and modes, directed to whistle players:
http://www.geocities.com/novairishsession/modes/modes.html
Cheers,
Michael
http://www.michaeleskin.com
Good stuff. Here’s a slightly different take on modes.
Whistles play major scales. Think of a major scale as 7 degrees. Playing up a scale goes 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-1’. On a D whistle, D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D’. On a G is would be G, A, B, C, D, E, F#, G’. Etc.
Easy stuff.
Now, the Dorian (what most people call the minor) mode is based on scale degree six. Mixolydian (my favorite mode–I LOVE the sound of mixo tunes!) (yes, I have a favorite mode–does that make me a nerd?) is based on scale degree five.
So basically a D whistle can play in D Major, B minor (scale degree six), or A mixolydian (S. D. five). You can get other keys and modes by half-holing/cross-fingering, but let’s not get TOO complicated.
If a tune has two sharps (key of D Major) but the “tonic” note, the one where it feels at home, seems to be A (scale degree five), than it’s in Mixolydian mode and you’ll hear that cool lowered 7th. If the tonic note is a B (degree six), than you know it’s in a minor key and you’re generally in for something sad and/or intense sounding.
Now. pausing for breath what was the question?
One interesting thing I’ve noticed, especially about Scottish music, is that with many tunes it’s impossible to tell major of minor because the third scale degree (the one which determines “minorness”) is missing entirely from the tune.
More fun with modes and scottish tunes: Highland pipes are actually tuned to a Bb (more or less) mixolydian scale, just as whistles are tuned to a major scale. It’s often said that you want a Bb whistle to play along with highland pipes. But this will require a half-hole. Instead get an Eb whistle and play in Mixolydian mode, starting on scale degree five.
By the way, here is my favorite key signature mnemonic for flats: Bulgarian Eskimos Always Dig Good Corn Flakes.
Tom
edited because my grammar is doubleplusungood.
[ This Message was edited by: WyoBadger on 2003-02-14 17:47 ]
Close, but no cigar…
Dorian is based on scale degree 2, i.e., E dorian sits on a D scale:
E F# G A B C# D E
I think of dorian as the major key minus two sharps… for example e major has 4 sharps, e dorian has two.
The aeolian mode, or natural minor scale sits on 6… I think of aeolian as the major scale minus three sharps… for example b major has 5 sharps, b aeolian has two, so it sits on the d-major scale.
Darnit, you’re right! I hearby resign my nerdship.
TW 
Your sitting in session, and the fingers are flying. Tones are singing, hmmm… what key?
My most helpfull hint from a fellow player was to look to the last note of the b part. If it ends on G, its probably g major key signature, one sharp (cross finger C natural). If it ends on D its probably d major key signature, two sharps(Open fingering C#). If it ends on E its probably e-minor or e-dorian depending on wether the C# or Cnat fits the tune. This doesn’t work everytime, but it helps to narrow the field.
So you can join in and …
\
Enjoy Your Music,
Lee Marsh
From Harper’s Mill, MD.
[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2003-02-17 02:21 ]
On 2003-02-12 04:09, Zubivka wrote:
Here’s a little rule of thumb for whistles :Second major key (starting xxx ooo, using cross-fingered “C”) is one flat down from 1st major.
- D key (##) minus one flat gives #, i.e. G
- F (bb) minus one flat gives one flat, i.e. Bb.
But the key of F has only one flat not two. Hmmm…your formula seems to make it more complicated than necessary. As long as you know what note is sounded with xxx ooo you know what the second major key is.
-David
On 2003-02-17 09:51, Feadan wrote:
On 2003-02-12 04:09, Zubivka wrote:
Here’s a little rule of thumb for whistles :Second major key (starting xxx ooo, using cross-fingered “C”) is one flat down from 1st major.
- D key (##) minus one flat gives #, i.e. G
- F (bb) minus one flat gives one flat, i.e. Bb.
But the key of F > has > only one flat not two. Hmmm…your formula seems to make it more complicated than necessary. As long as you know what note is sounded with xxx ooo you know what the second major key is.
-David
:oops:That will teach me to type before I speak before I think before I had my 2nd morning coffee-pot As Louis Pasteur said : “do as I say, not as I do”…
Feadan, thanks for being first to, if not spotting, at least spelling out my blunder…
Of course I meant F (1b) down one flat = 2 b = Bb…
In this rule +1b is quite naturally equal to -1#.
However, if I do agree with your " xxx ooo is enough lore", for playing by ear (if you’re told or can hear you’re, say, in Bb) but I thought my little rule of thumb can help when you read the score.
And, heck, I’m lost anyway without my FaDo’ Clock
Great info! I’ve been wondering that lately, but just hadn’t gotten to asking. Thanks Aodhan for asking the question and thanks to everyone who gave such great responses. This really helped.
At the risk of digressing further, for those who hate memorizing (or like seeing how things are put together), just remember that every time you go up a fifth, you add a half-step to the seventh… which is to say, the ‘next’ key signature is found by finding the fifth note in the scale; the new scale ‘adds a sharp’ to the seventh tone in the scale.
Ie,
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C’ becomes
G - A - B - C - D - E - F - G’ becomes
G - A - B - C - D - E - F# - G’
And we’ve created a new scale.
Okay, so it’s a re-discovery…
Of course, it’s easier to find the seventh by figuring out the note -before- your new key rather than the one -after- your new key.
It also gets rather more complicated and prone to requiring a keyboard to stare at once you’ve gone up a few fifths…
However, it has the tremendous advantage that when you’re stuck on a desert island with nothing but a whistle and a library of sheet music (but no theory books!) you can still figure out what’s happening…
Eh. Okay, maybe it’s not very useful to most people, but I’d almost always rather spend time calculating than memorize a table. I also haven’t seen this ‘construction method’ described in any of my theory books.
(The construction method of the books I have is to go to the key on a piano and count it out… 'starting here, tonic, step, second, step, third, half-step, fourth, step, fifth, step, sixth, step, seventh, half-step, octave… which works, and explains why a major key sounds like a major key… but doesn’t explain why fifths have the relationship they do.)
Anyway. Hope that helps. It probably won’t, but I can hope.
–Chris
Chris, you’re certainly right :
what’s memorized can get quickly out of the brain.
What’s understood by the principles to the point you can reconstruct it never fades.
So these relative and neighboring tones may be usefully understood first; practicing will ge one the automatisms anyway… until you hit one crazy key.