Key-signature confusion (long and technical)

Whistle
1

Two posts today show one of the perils of written music - Tyghress was alarmed by the “one flat” in Julia Delaney, and Selkie by the “three sharps” (particularly the G#) in the High Road to Linton.

In fact there is no cause for alarm in either case.

There are no Bs in Julia Delaney, and consequently, as Bloomfield might say, none of them are B-flats.

There are normally no G#s in The High Road to Linton. (In an email message Selkie confirmed that on examining her music she found this is correct.)

Both these situations are the result of transcriptions by people who don’t know enough about the music they are dealing with and who try to fit Irish or Scottish tunes into standard major and minor key signatures.

The reasoning goes like this: “The High Road to Linton is obviously in A, and it has a very definite C# and F#, so it must be A major, and A major has three sharps, so the Gs must be sharp too. So let’s put three sharps on the staff. What’s that? All the Gs are natural? Must be modulation - better mark them with a natural sign.”

For Julia Delaney, the reasoning goes: “Obviously in D, but the Fs are all natural, so it must be minor. D minor has one flat, so we have to put that on the staff. Never mind the fact that there are no Bs, the Bs are flat!”

Of course, as you will often read, these tunes use neither a standard major nor a standard minor scale, but a “mode” (which is simply another word for an older form of scale).

Very few tunes in the Irish tradition are in a true minor key - they are almost all in the Dorian mode, which has a whole tone between the fifth and sixth degrees of the scale, or if you like, a sharpened sixth (in A dorian, an F#; in E dorian, a C#; and in D dorian, a B natural).

Likewise many tunes that appear to be “major” are actually in the mixolydian mode, which has a semitone between the sixth and seventh degrees of the scale and a whole tone between the seventh and the octave - a flattened seventh if you like.

Of course it’s not that simple. Lots of Irish tunes that appear to be in D-mixolydian actually use both flattened and sharpened sevenths.

To make matters worse, in the two cases we are discussing, if Julia Delaney were in a straightforward Dorian mode, we could expect a B natural, when in fact we have no Bs at all.

If the High Road to Linton were true A-mixolydian, we’d expect prominent G-naturals, but in fact there are only a couple, passing notes into the bargain, and the tune sounds just fine without them.

So this is by way of a warning - if you continue to rely on sheet music, you’re bound to encounter plenty of examples of this kind of nonsense - by which I mean spurious key signatures.

So just be aware. When you see too many sharps or one or more flats, have a good look at and preferably listen to the tune before you start assuming you can’t play it without buying a new whistle!

Have confidence - it will all start to make sense eventually. :wink:

Edited for typos.

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-04-10 23:40 ]

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Steve,you are most likely familiar with Begged,borrowed and stolen,a wonderful collection of taditional tunes and widely circulated in Australia years ago.The producers of this book had the good sense to simply write two sharps and a natural at the beginning to simplify things where needed.I,ve never seen this done in other publications but I reckon it,s a good idea. :slight_smile: Mike

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Thanks Steve!

I discovered that on my own and with the help of my friend and colleague the music librarian., when I went through some very old music books here in the library.

But I neither have the musical training nor the eloquence to express it.

Mark

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On 2002-04-10 23:37, I wrote:
Both these situations are the result of transcriptions by people who don’t know enough about the music they are dealing with and who try to fit Irish or Scottish tunes into standard major and minor key signatures.

(Wipes egg off face, laughing.) I just checked the practice in a book that I co-edited recently and discovered that we are guilty of this very crime! There are a couple of D-mix tunes with two sharps in the key signature and all but one or two Cs marked natural, there are tunes with two sharps but containing no Cs at all…

I can’t accuse my co-editor, who did all the transcriptions, of being ignorant, he’s anything but that. One possible excuse is that the publisher wanted guitar chords marked: it might look very strange to see a tune with one sharp with “D” as the main chord. But I’ll have to ask him why he did it. (Still chuckling.)

Mike, I’m not sure I ever saw the collection you mention, but the name does ring a bell. Who put it out? The practice of putting two sharps and a natural on the staff for a A-mixolydian tune is a great one. Hmm wonder if ABC2Win can do that…

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On 2002-04-11 06:08, mike.r wrote:
…The producers of this book had the good sense to simply write two sharps and a natural at the beginning to simplify things where needed.I’ve never seen this done in other publications but I reckon it’s a good idea. > :slight_smile: > Mike

That’s definitely a great idea, Mike. I just checked my music software, NoteWorthy Composer, and there is an option to do custom key signatures like the one you indicated. Out of idle curiosity, I wonder if any of our users of Melody Assistant can tell us if it can do this as well.

-David

P.S. (4-13-02)Actually I am wrong about NoteWorthy. Although one can create custom key sigs the natural sign will in fact not show up on the staff. Went to the NWC site and added thoughts on this to the Wish List.

[ This Message was edited by: Feadan on 2002-04-13 11:22 ]

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Speaking of notation, thus taking this thread only a semi-tone off topic,
I noticed that in the transcription of Micho Russell’s performance of “The Four Posts of the Bed” (transcription and audio both found at http://www.pennywhistler.com), Micho plays 3 different “C” notes in the tune. He is said to be making “micro-tonal adjustments to the pitch of C”. The note between C and C# is notated with an Up Arrow above the C Natural.
I personally haven’t seen this Arrow notation used in any of the books I have.
Have any others observed this raised C notation elsewhere ?
Is Stevie J.'s software capable of this special notation ?
Are there other special notations for the raised C Natural ?

[ This Message was edited by: bob baksi on 2002-04-11 09:56 ]

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Thanks, SteveJ for a thoroughing engrossing and humorous (to me anyway) explanation! Though I’ve been a musician for over 30 years, I never studied music theory, so this is a tab far afield for me. I’m finding it interesting, and at least helps understand the quirks of Irish Traditional music.

We all need to remember that writing down the music for IRTRAD is a recent innovation (isn’t that redundant?); that the music was typically passed on aurally.

Our session group spent an hour last Monday night learning a new slide–and NO ONE had any music in front of them! It was great! And more important: unlike some tunes I can play well, but still need the music (weaning myself slower than desired), I remember the tune, can hum it, can play on both fiddle and whistle! And I can associate the tune with the title!!!


:slight_smile:

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On 2002-04-11 09:54, bob baksi wrote:
Speaking of notation, thus taking this thread only a semi-tone off topic,
I noticed that in the transcription of Micho Russell’s performance of “The Four Posts of the Bed” (transcription and audio both found at > http://www.pennywhistler.com> ), Micho plays 3 different “C” notes in the tune. He is said to be making “micro-tonal adjustments to the pitch of C”. The note between C and C# is notated with an Up Arrow above the C Natural.
I personally haven’t seen this Arrow notation used in any of the books I have.
Have any others observed this raised C notation elsewhere ?
Is Stevie J.'s software capable of this special notation ?
Are there other special notations for the raised C Natural ?

[ This Message was edited by: bob baksi on 2002-04-11 09:56 ]

Yes, it is commonly used in modern choir music to denote the slight (higher or lower (arrow down)) adjustments that has to be made to certain tempered notes in a chord to get the “real” chord. For example, the third in a major chord should be slightly lower than the tempered third, and the third in a minor chord should be slightly raised.

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Thank you, Andreas, for pointing out the Arrow usage in choir music notation. Being a choir member and former amateur director, I am embarrassed to not remember seeing it. Now, given as the playing of traditional irish music seems to have often incorporated the Raised C Natural, the raised F Natural, and probably other “microtonal pitch adjustments”, should we not expect that the Arrow usage (maybe even with cents variation next to the Arrow)would be seen much more often in the Irish music notations ?
Should we be encouraging this Arrow to be a standard to be used by publishers in order to encourage a more accurate reflection of tunes (conversely, discouraging inaccurate notation) ?

[ This Message was edited by: bob baksi on 2002-04-11 10:58 ]

[ This Message was edited by: bob baksi on 2002-04-11 11:12 ]

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Steve,
begged,borrowed & stolen was compiled by Chris O`connor and Suzette Watkins and was first published in 1979 by Talunga Music LTD,Birdwood,S.A. Mike

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Along the lines of what StevieJ originally wrote, one should be very careful when using such programs as Noteworthy Composer to do transpositions. Sometimes the results seem to be more complex than they really are. A few months ago I was engaged in putting Kerry Dance into a more whistle-friendly key from the MIDI form I had found it in, and got an odd key signature with lots of B# accidentals. After a moment’s reflection the B# is, of course, C-nat, and that allowed me to sort the key signature and the music into something “civilized” with a bit of manual editing. So, just because it looks wierd doesn’t mean it really is wierd.

Kerry Dance, especially the bridge, is now my half-holing exercise piece.

On the subject of modes, perhaps some of you can help me with this: I purchased a book on music theory and have been reading up on modes. I haven’t had much trouble understanding what a mode is, but I’m not always able to figure out the key and mode of a tune. Sometimes it’s easy, and sometimes not. What specifically does one look for in determining the mode of a tune?

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On 2002-04-11 10:37, bob baksi wrote:
Now, given as the playing of traditional irish music seems to have often incorporated the Raised C Natural, the raised F Natural, and probably other “microtonal pitch adjustments”, should we not expect that the Arrow usage (maybe even with cents variation next to the Arrow)would be seen much more often in the Irish music notations ?
Should we be encouraging this Arrow to be a standard to be used by publishers in order to encourage a more accurate reflection of tunes (conversely, discouraging inaccurate notation)?

This could indeed be useful in some circumstances - attempts to note exactly what a particular player does, for example, or maybe in tutor books for specific passages.

But for general purposes I feel it’s an unnecessary complication, especially when you get into the idea of indicating how many cents sharp of flat. (Sharp or flat of what, anyway?)

I plead for bare-bones transcriptions, which we all understand to be memory aids that we flesh out to the best of our ability, understanding and taste.

You can’t get everything from the music. I don’t want to be told where to put in what ornament, and I certainly don’t want someone telling me, “Hey, you played that note straight, but in my book it says it has to be 12 cents flat! That’s the way Joe O’Blow plays it, it says so!”

(Mike, thanks. I remember Chris and Suzette.)

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For folks who are wondering what is Mixolydian or what’s a Dorian? There’s an excellent article by Jos Hindriks that talks about Modes in irish music. Also here’s a link to it and a more general link to music theory information I’ve found helpfull.

Enjoy Your Music,

Lee Marsh

[ This Message was edited by: LeeMarsh on 2002-04-11 13:03 ]

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This has been a very interesting discussion. I wanted to reinforce the idea that the modes are essentially a way of classifying tunes that are transmitted orally. They were identified and named in order to help in memorizing church chants of the eleventh and twelfth centuries. When music began to be written down in the Western classical tradition, the modes died out (except of course in folk music) and only the major (ionian) and minor (aeolian) were transferred to the written traditions.

Nevertheless, the key signatures you see when modal music is written down can still be useful. If you see a tune written with one flat, you can play it as though it were in F major, observing all the accidentals, even if it is really in D dorian. This will make it obvious that you will need a C whistle.
And when you see a tune with three sharps, look for the accidentals to see if it can be easily played on the D whistle.
The accidentals will also help you to identify when a tune is modal, since it needs accidentals to fit into the standard notation. Nevertheless, it simply isn’t neccessary to know what mode a tune is in when you play it.

[ This Message was edited by: Blackbird on 2002-04-11 14:20 ]

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Thanks for the post Steve.The High Road to Linton. What is written on it is that the first 2 parts of the tune were written by the grandfather of Keith Dixon who played the accordian and was a band leader from Lothian Scotland. Later variations were added by Bobby McLeod, Iian McPhail and Ian Lothian. Weird as the c# oftens becomes a c natural. The speed is breakneck though as well although 4/4

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On 2002-04-11 11:52, ndjr wrote:
… I haven’t had much trouble understanding what a mode is, but I’m not always able to figure out the key and mode of a tune. Sometimes it’s easy, and sometimes not. What specifically does one look for in determining the mode of a tune?

The short answer is: the last note (or the note that would be the last note were there a last note).

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On 2002-04-11 17:53, Bloomfield wrote:

The short answer is: the last note (or the note that would be the last note were there a last note).

Thanks, Bloomfield. That is the short version of what I got from an article in Fintan Vallely’s book. For some reason it just seemed to me a bit too simple, and I wanted to hear someone else say it. :slight_smile:

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On 2002-04-11 17:53, Bloomfield wrote:

On 2002-04-11 11:52, ndjr wrote:
… I haven’t had much trouble understanding what a mode is, but I’m not always able to figure out the key and mode of a tune. Sometimes it’s easy, and sometimes not. What specifically does one look for in determining the mode of a tune?

The short answer is: the last note (or the note that would be the last note were there a last note).

The last note will almost always give you the keynote but that alone doesn’t tell you the mode. If the last note is A, the scale (mode) will probably be A X in Irish music where X could be major (Ionian), minor (Dorian or Aeolian) or Mixolydian. So you have to know the mode by looking at the key signature. If you are not looking at music you would have to know the notes of the scale of the tune to see which mode it is.

Steve

[ This Message was edited by: SteveK on 2002-04-12 09:43 ]

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The last note, Bloomfield? It’s wise not to try to formulate rules about Irish traditional music, or to try to make it fit what works for other traditions.

SteveK is careful to say the last note “almost always” gives you the key note, but actually problem cases are quite numerous.

Take the jig “Down the back lane” - it seems to be in D-mixolydian. Until you get to the last note, which is a very emphatic G. And it is not alone.

(BTW if I’m not mistaken the notorious Appalachian (?) tune “Over the waterfall” exhibits the same behaviour.)

Another couple of weirdos for you, off the top of the head. “The Cloon” (Humours of Toomagh) and “Sailing into Walpole’s Marsh”. If you took the last note as a guide, you’d say The Cloon was in a D mode. Now have a look at the rest of the tune and start scratching your head.

Walpole’s Marsh ends on A in the first part, D in the second, but just wanders all over the place all through.

And what about “The Bank of Ireland” and “Rakish Paddy”?

Tomas O Cannain discusses such “tunes with complex tonalities” in his book Traditional Music in Ireland. He ends up proposing a system whereby you assign weights to various notes in the tune depending on the position, function and frequency in order to determine the tonality.

All very interesting. I don’t bother my head too much about all this. I suppose if I were a guitarist I’d have to, though!

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-04-12 08:46 ]

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On 2002-04-12 08:44, StevieJ wrote:
The last note, Bloomfield? It’s wise not to try to formulate rules about Irish traditional music, or to try to make it fit what works for other traditions.

I left myself open to that, of course. Everything you say is true. The last-note rule-of-thumb probably only works for 70%-80% of the tunes. :slight_smile: I haven’t gone around analysing tonality that much, but if someone asks me what key is this-or-that in, I start with my short answer: I run through the scale (sharps, flats, naturals) and I look at the last note. Sometimes it doesn’t work and I’m stumped. At which point I give up because I don’t know the long answer, either.

So thanks for adding all the disclaimers that I recklessly omitted. :smiley: But I don’t quite know where that “other traditions” jibe comes from. If you are accusing me of being classically trained, my second will see you promptly to fix a time. Your choice of weapons. And incidentally, in classical music “the last note” is only the short answer, too, and quite inadequate to comprehend the tonality of certain Schubert pieces. Not to mention Wagner, Bruckner, or Hindemith, of course. :wink: