Help answering some "dumb" questions please?

Whistle
1

Okay, some say there is no such thing as a dumb question, but these feel like dumb questions, especially considering the advanced musical ability of many here on the board. But if I am to make progress, I’ve got to ask. Gotta start somewhere. Tried looking them up, but didn’t find much help. Maybe I looked in the wrong places? Anyhow…

What is a C Natural??? My musical experience consists of six years of choir, and one college semester of beginners piano. Never once was the term C natural explained or used. I’ve always used the little ditties from grade school to find what note is which: Every Good Boy Does Fine and F-A-C-E for the upper staff; All Cows Eat Grass and Good Boys Do Fine Always for the lower staff. Then, the sharp and flat symbols to show the sharps and flats. 4/4 time=four beat per measure, the notes go up- the notes go down, that sort of basic stuff that helps when singing. I have a tendency to “cheat” by playing by ear which does not help me understand sheet music much. When people start talking about this type of note and that note and so many beats here at this speed it starts to go over my head. Am trying to learn how to read music better though.

So back to C Natural. Is it the same as just a C? Or is it something else? I read a while back where you can play the same song with the same fingering on different keys of whistle and it will work, but it will just be in a different key. Is the fingering of C natural the same way? Do you use the same fingering with different whistle keys or is it completely different? So far I have only played C whistles (just somehow ended up that way, though I have a D on order) and so I’ve nothing to compare with yet. And the few sharps/flats I’ve ran across I’ve just half holed. I like half holing, but wonder if that might be hard when I start to do faster music, and those other fingerings might be better?

Music. My source of music so far has mainly been the internet (and by ear with songs I’m familiar with). Thought all was going well, then ran into some confusion. First, there are different versions/ variations of the “same song”. Which to learn? I’d like to be able to attend some sessions down the road and hopefully get good enough to even join in eventually. But I hate to put in all the effort to learn a song, only to find out that I learned the wrong version or some uncommon twist someone did on a song. Is there some kind of music source in common that is generally used, or is it just a shot in the dark take your chances type thing when you learn a song whether or not you are going to be able to play that song along with others down the road?

Then there are songs that are listed in the key of D or whatever key it happens to says. If I go to play a song that says written in the key of D and I want to play it on a C whistle, is there anything I special I need to do? Or can I just follow the notes as they are written and ignore the Key of D part and still get the right fingering for the tune?

And a few questions of lesser concern, just curious here. On using the liquid soap trick to keep your whistle from clogging, are there really any bad soaps that could hurt your whistle that should be stayed away from. Or is whatever is sitting around the house that is okay on your skin okay inside your whistle to? And does anyone know why the soap thing works? Is it just something for whistles that someone just stumbled on or did it start with some other instrument… and of all the things, why soap?

Well, I guess that’s all that’s been muddling my head up so far. Can anyone help make the mud a little clearer?

2

No dumb questions. C natural is the same thing as just C. This is where C is on the staff (treble clef)"

o_

if there is a sharp # before the c (or in the key signature in that space), it becomes a c-sharp, and if there is a flat (b), it becomes a c-flat. People will refer to c-naturals mainly to stress that it’s not a c-sharp. That makes sense on the whistle because most music is writen in D, which has a c-sharp. (G, the second most common key, has a c-natural rather than a c-sharp.) On a D-whistle,

this is c-sharp: 000 000 and
this is c-natural: oxx xox or oxx ooo (or half-hole, -oo ooo).

On a C whistle, the C natural is
xxx xxx or oxx xxx (upper octave), of course.

You can learn a tune on one whistle, and then just play it on another. The key will be different, but that doesn’t matter as long as you don’t play with others. If you want to play the note at the pitch that it is written (well, actually, an octave above), then make sure that you play a D as xxx xxx, an E as xxx xxo, etc. That way, once you have a D whistle, you’ll be set to play with others. Find the fingering chart for D-whistles here on the web-page, and use that.

Minor variations between tunes aren’t much of a problem. If you are going to learn off sheet music and want the most common “session” settings, your best bet will be Henry Norbeck’s collection of ABCs, at least that’s what I hear.

Good luck!

/bloomfield

[ This Message was edited by: Bloomfield on 2002-07-16 16:45 ]

3

On 2002-07-16 16:27, Sunnywindo wrote:
Then there are songs that are listed in the key of D or whatever key it happens to says. If I go to play a song that says written in the key of D and I want to play it on a C whistle, is there anything I special I need to do?

If you have a C whistle and a tune in the key of D, you can probably play it as written but it will require more half-holing to get the right sharps, flats or whatever. It would be much easier to play it on a D whistle.

Also, if you learn a D song on a D whistle, and then use the same fingering on a C whistle, you’ve just played the song in C instead of D. Neat eh?

Or can I just follow the notes as they are written and ignore the Key of D part and still get the right fingering for the tune?

If you follow the notes as written and use a C whistle, you can get the right notes, but it would not be the same fingering as if you used a D whistle, and it will probably be harder to play than if you were using a D whistle.

[ This Message was edited by: avanutria on 2002-07-16 16:45 ]

4

The reason C nat comes up in discussions is that we’re usualy playing on a whistle that plays a scale in the key of d. That means that the notes go: d e fsharp g a b csharp d.
If you don’t half-hole anything, those are the notes you get (on a D whistle). If you look at printed music written in D, you’ll see that the f line (at the top) and the c space have # symbols indicating they are played sharp. That’s the D scale, same as the notes on the D whistle.

If you remove the # symbol, the note is not sharp and becomes ‘natural’ as are the other notes in the D scale. To play the C unsharped/natural, you cover half the hole of the left index finger on a D whistle.

If you were playing a whistle tuned in C, the c natural note would be the lowest note on the whistle and the one with all the holes covered (or all covered except the left index) for the next octave up. There would be no c sharp without doing something else. (Don’t bother figuring out that one.)
Tony

5

Quite a slew of questions…

On 2002-07-16 16:27, Sunnywindo wrote:
What is a C Natural?? … Is it the same as just a C? Or is it something else?

It’s just a C - but one that is not sharp! C-sharp or C# is the note one semitone above C. We only refer to C as C natural to distinguish it from C#. That’s all.

I read a while back where you can play the same song with the same fingering on different keys of whistle and it will work, but it will just be in a different key. Is the fingering of C natural the same way? Do you use the same fingering with different whistle keys or is it completely different?

Not quite sure what you’re asking here. Whatever fingering you use, you can use it on any whistle (well almost any whistle). The note sounded by any given fingering will depend on the key of the whistle (although the relationship of that note to all other given fingerings on the same whistle is constant).

I like half holing, but wonder if that might be hard when I start to do faster music, and those other fingerings might be better?

It’s a matter of preference. Actually there are only a few “accidentals” (notes not in the main key) that can be obtained with “cross-fingerings”. The main ones are C-natural, B-flat, and G-sharp in the second octave (all depending on your whistle). For any other accidentals you generally have to use half-holing anyway.

Music. My source of music so far has mainly been the internet (and by ear with songs I’m familiar with). Thought all was going well, then ran into some confusion. First, there are different versions/ variations of the “same song”. Which to learn? I’d like to be able to attend some sessions down the road and hopefully get good enough to even join in eventually. But I hate to put in all the effort to learn a song, only to find out that I learned the wrong version or some uncommon twist someone did on a song. Is there some kind of music source in common that is generally used, or is it just a shot in the dark take your chances type thing when you learn a song whether or not you are going to be able to play that song along with others down the road?

Well… at some point you are going to have to face the reality of different versions, and develop the flexibility to adapt. It’s part of the rich tapestry of Irish music actually (if Irish music is what interests you).

Like anything else on the internet, you need to be able to trust your source. If you’re a beginner I’d recommend learning by ear from recordings of good players, of if you really can’t deal with that, a good book of session standards.

Then there are songs that are listed in the key of D or whatever key it happens to says. If I go to play a song that says written in the key of D and I want to play it on a C whistle, is there anything I special I need to do? Or can I just follow the notes as they are written and ignore the Key of D part and still get the right fingering for the tune?

Nothing special required. The only issue is playing with other people, where you need to agree upon a key!

Soap questions I know nothing about. But Dr Bronner’s or any good Castille soap should be safe for your health.

HTH
Steve

6

On 2002-07-16 16:52, StevieJ wrote:

Soap questions I know nothing about. But Dr Bronner’s or any good Castille soap should be safe for your health.

HTH
Steve

All-One!

7

[/quote]
All-One!

[/quote]

Dilute! Dilute! OK!
If only the good Doctor knew of the whistle-soap trick, he could be producing 19-in-1 soap. It was just my birthday yesterday, and I was given a nice big bottle of the peppermint.

8

THANK YOU for you help! The light is starting to shine! :smiley: I think.

So the C natural is like what I thought. Just a C. No C#, no strange kind of C I’ve never heard of. Just a C.

So when I get a D whistle, I have a song written in the key of D, learn it on the D whistle, then use the same fingering to play the song on a C whistle and the song would just be in the key of C and so on with other whistle keys. It would be easier to learn on a D and go from there.

So, from what was said, and then looking at the fingering chart (found through the link on the main C&F page) which starts at D, the notes on a D whistle go D E F# G A B C# D E F# G A B… etc. up as high as the whistle will go. The in between notes are Eb F G# Bb and C. On the chart it also shows fingerings you can use for these notes.

So, (hoping this is right?) if I were to use this chart and replace the letters D with a C and the Eb with a D and the E with the Eb and so on, that would give me the order of notes and the fingering for those notes as would pertain to a C whistle? And the same could be done with other keys?

And if I wanted to use sheet music in the key of D on my C whistle I would have to make adjustments like the “D as xxx xxx, an E as xxx xxo, etc.” so the D song would be properly played in the key of C on the C whistle. Then when I play the same song on the D whistle, the fingering is all right and I won’t be all confused (too much) when I go to play with others.

As for different versions of songs, I guess I’m just used to more consistency coming from a mostly singing background. Being one basic version of songs like Battle Hymn of the Republic and Silent Night. Course, after learning the basic version, you can sing and add little things to make it a bit different or to emphasize a certain part.

But in whistles those little changes are more varied and are even written down into sheet music making for different “versions”? So guess the best thing would be to get that good book of session standards as was suggested. Hopefully one with a CD so I can hear it to if I get confused with the sheet music. (So Henry Norbeck’s collection of ABC’s is a book? I know I’ve seen that mentioned somewhere, it’s just not coming to mind right now.) I think there was a thread on good book CD sets, I’ll have to go back and check.

That will give me a good start, the book would help with some basics, and then when I do go to a session it’s just a matter of more learning and perhaps learning several variations; lots of listening (I already planned to do A LOT of listening at the session before playing much of anything. Lots to learn still.) :slight_smile:

As for the soap, I’ll keep an eye out for the good stuff, but it still would be nice to know why the soap works and how/when it started being used for whistles. Or is this another unsolved mystery? :wink:

So does this all sound right or am I still confused?

9

Norbeck’s online only unless you choose to print them all out, which you can. You would profit from spending time to learn the abc program so you can change, notate and work with tunes on your computer. Even put church tunes into the format for sharing.

I am outspoken about Norbeck
's versions but they seem closer to what people play in sessions than anything else that’s printed. I spent part of last evening crossing out notes on printed sheet music and putting in roll symbols. Learn it Sunny and save yerself the trouble.

10

Henry Norbeck’s collection of ABC’s… found it!

http://home1.swipnet.se/~w-11382/abc.htm

That looks WONDERFUL! Wow! Could have hours of fun there. :smiley: Don’t have time to look around right now, have to go fix dinner, but will get on it ASAP. THANKS!

11

As to the soap thing.

Soap is a natural surfactant, which is to say it has the chemical property of breaking down/eliminating the surface tension of water. It makes the water molecules less cohesive and therefore less inclined to stick to other water molecules.

This is why soap is good for washing things. It makes the little water molecules less likely to cling to other water molecules and more “willing” to mingle with the dirt. So…In the whistle world soap makes the little water molecules condensing on the inside of your fipple more “slippery” and less able to adhere to other water molecules (to form drops) or to the whistle itself. No drops means no vapor lock.

The same principle applies to spaghetti. The water molecules and starches from the spaghetti get all excited about sticking together and form a foam on top of the boiling pot…add some vegetable oil ( another surfactant) and voila! The water molecules can’t hold together anymore and the foam disappears.

The same principle also occurs in cows with bloat and horses with colic. They get all full of foam from the grass they’ve been munching and can’t pass the gas or belch. Along comes the veterinarian and pumps them full of mineral oil (yet another surfactant) and they are able to pass the gas freely and make holes in the ozone layer.

As for how this information was applied to the whistle, I suspect it was the Crystal people.

Regards,

Doc

12

Well, Sunny to hopefully save you time, here is how I approach the Norbeck.

  1. I hear a song I like.

  2. I go to his site and use the INDEX, its on the blue printing on the left side of your screen.

  3. I find the title by the first letter of the last name.

  4. It tells me what number and where it is located (dances are in sets by type and numbered)

  5. If you have the harddrive space, you might copy all of his collection and keep it in a known place so you don’t have to download pieces one at a time. (THis actually comes before these other steps but I got too linear and forgot to mention it)

  6. Open THAT set of tunes and find your tune. You can play it and view the tune in split screen mode (on a Mac anyway).You can memorize it right there or proceed:

  7. Now what I do is this: I copy the TEXT version of the tune.

:sunglasses: I open a NEW file in the program (I use BARFLY) but PCs must use something else.

  1. If you try and print, it will be giant noteheads. So now comes the tricky part. Each person uses different methods for this but I do the following.

  2. After having saved the new single tune (or in my case I usually do a set of three after hearing them on a record somewhere and copy-pasting em all into one file), I drag the file over to MACYAPS, which turns it into postscript. Some programs MIGHT print it right there but mine do not.

  3. So I distill them using ACROBAT Distiller, which creates a PDF file. Now, I can print a very sharp tune or email it to the fiddling Weekender.

It is cumbersome but reliable. I tried other methods but they did not happen to work with my system. The single biggest drawback after time consuming is that you cannot make the notes bigger and they come out kind of little.

Good luck.

13

Hey Sunny,

Others have done a grand job of answering your very pertinent questions. I’ve just one small thing to add.

Keep in mind that the whistle is essentially a diatonic instrument (ie: it is tuned to and plays in one primary key) as opposed to a chromatic instrument (ie: all notes including all sharps and flats can be easily played). Think of whistles in different keys like a capo for guitar. If you want to play in the key of C, use a C (or G) whistle. This makes it a lot easier . . .

and is also a major factor in WhOA!

Enjoy the music!

Vinny

14

Since other folks answered most of your questions. They left out the part (looking in the right places). The followinf is from a previous post on resources for music theory. I especiall recommend the first article/link by Jos Hindricks.

On 2002-01-15 13:45, LeeMarsh wrote:
Thought I’d post a few sites I’ve run into that help to explain Modes and Keys and other theories musical:

Hope this helps you further to …

15

The soap thing makes sense now. Wonderful thing that it works to! Ah… the Crystal People. Figures. :wink:

Haven’t been to the board much the last few days. Been gasp actually practicing a lot with what spare time I’ve had.

Just wanted to drop back in and say thank you for your help and all the wonderful information. It’s all REALLY GREAT and I think my brain is starting to make sense out of all this… I think. We’ll find out when I finally get the chance to meet with other whistlers in person here in a few months and see/hear more whistling first hand. :slight_smile: