Transcibing for whistle is so misunderstood!

Whistle
1

I was handed what I think is kind of a funny transcription of tune.

The group I play with will be playing the title track off of Michael W. Smith’s “Freedom” album for the 4th of July. It is a more contemporary piece with sort of a patriotic feel to it. It features the pennywhistle in a couple of sections.

So the band leader ordered the published sheet music. You know where all of the string parts, horn parts, etc. are written out for each section. Being the band’s whistle player, I was given the whistle music.

So on the whistle part’s music, at the top of the page it says “Celtic Low Whistle”, but when you listen to the recording, it is clearly a soprano C whistle that the piece starts with which later mods to a soprano D-hardly “Low whistles”!

The piece starts in F, which as I mentioned before, is clearly a soprano C whistle. However the sheet music for the whistle is written in F major (B-flat in the key signature)! This is slightly inconvenient for music that was written specifically as a whistle part. Good players can transpose in their head, which is what I do when reading off of piano music. However, when I play any tune, I like to think in terms of it as being in D major or G major. I believe it is suggested that transcribers write out whistle music this way. So in this case, write the music in G major, with a note at the top saying to use a C whistle. I mean, when you write out a clarinet part or a trumpet part, which are B-flat instruments, you don’t write them as if they are C instruments, and make the trumpet player transpose everything in their head! Good players can do this, but the point of sheet music for each individual instrument is to make it to where the player thinks in terms of his own instrument, not being forced to transpose.

Anyway, it is any easy tune to learn by ear. No sheet music is need for this whistle part anyway. You only have to transpose up 2 half steps to think in terms of the key of G. I just laugh at the way the “whistle” music was written in a “whistle-unfriendly” way.

P3

2

That’s the first instance I’ve heard of a commercial score with a ‘transposed’ whistle part. I’ve run across a couple that call for ethnic tooters in various keys, but there were extensive explanations in the score in both cases. My memory is muddy, but I think one of them was a Robert W. Smith chart. Into The Storm? Maybe it was Regenesis (composer forgotten).

In this age of computer notation, it’s odd (but not unexpected) that they’d muck up the transposition. Too few musicians would understand “A ‘C’ whistle is actually a Bb instrument, but please don’t ask it to play in Bb. For that, you want a Bb whistle, which is actually a transposing Ab instrument.”

Well done with the fix. Did the transposed notes all fall within the whistle’s range?

3

You’re not kidding. Especially if some poor concert flute player
or clarinetist is tapped to play the whistle part. It would be much
easier to write the C whistle as a transposing instrument, so the
fingerings will match up with the other woodwinds.

4

They did except for the fact that they were written an octave up. But then again, the transcriber thought it was a low whistle being used. There is one note written into the third octave a high E, which would take some bit of air if it really was a low whistle.

I forgot to mention that at the end of the score, the piece just ends with the strings and brass holding out a 9 measure long chord. Over that chord, on the whistle music it just says “Ad lib ‘overblown’ effects”. I guess it is true that that is something you just have to feel and would be difficult to transcribe.

5

I don’t know the music and so I am having fun with the puzzle on the basis of what you’ve written.

Perhaps the music for the piece is written in F/Dmin key signature because all the instruments in it play only the notes in that signature scale
and the composer had in mind an F whistle (low) for two streams of melodic activity:-

  • gapped mixolydian with C tonic (with the minor 7th interval omitted) which could sound like a soprano C whistle given the tonic is at XXO OOO
  • gapped aeolian with D tonic (with minor 3rd and the minor 6th intervals omitted) which could sound like a soprano D whistle given the XOO OOO tonic.

ASIDE: We get the latter type of pentatonic a lot in indic tradition and I hear it a lot in African tribal, Oriental and what is presented as Amerindian music (background in films etc). That is
Tonic+whole step+1.5 steps+whole step+1.5 steps+whole step to octave.

I have heard it in ITM also and I see from some sheet music that it is the gapped mode for “Oro Se Do Bheatha Abhaile” (diacritics removed). I would appreciate it if someone could provide an audiolink for this.

edit note: typo correction in red

6

I think the most reasonable explanations for the odd way of transcribing the part are two-fold:

  1. Although as whistle players we can see that writing in one sharp or two sharps with the notation “Use a C whistle here” would make the most sense to the player, there really is no set standard for how to write, transpose, and notate ornamentation for the tinwhistle. Some have given it a good try, I am a fan of Grey Larsen’s method, but nothing has really been adopted as a universal standard that I have found, and to do so would almost be anathema to whistle-playing anyway.

  2. It is entirely possible and rather likely that the transcriber didn’t know what the heck they were doing. I spent several years studying music theory and composition and never once did a professor mention how to write for tinwhistle, and if I had asked about it I would have been heartily laughed at. It is an unfortunate truth that folk-type instruments are regarded with a fair amount of scorn in the so-called “legitimate” music world. Usually the burden of transposition is on the composer rather than the player (with the exception of older F-horn parts), but it would not surprise me to learn that a well-published writer was putting out bad parts because they didn’t feel it was worth the effort to find out how to do it properly just for a folk instrument.

The moral of the story, I guess, is don’t be surprised if the next band arrangement with a tinwhistle part you see is written in six sharps with every cut, tap, and roll carefully written out so it’s nearly impossible to read. Just listen to the recording and learn the part the old fashioned way. Then you’ll amaze your friends when you tell them “Sheet music? We don’t need no stinkin’ sheet music” and play it for memory. :wink:

7

I wish I could just scan it an upload it for you to see. The piece truely is in C major modulating to D major. What has happened is an artist recorded a piece and then after the fact, a publisher made it available in sheet music and some one transcibed it for print. But it isn’t the actual composer’s music.

Knowing the way recording sessions go, there probably never was a whistle part written. It was probably just “Here’s the melody line. Can you do something with that?” and whoever did it just played by ear.

It would be like asking for Mike McGoldrick’s transcription of a tune. There is no such thing except for maybe the basic idea written down.

8

ok still having fun - harmless fun. you didnt comment on my deductions.
so ok - when u play the C whistle i suspect you dont play the note B on it?
when you play the D whistle you dont play F# and C# on it?
u play xfingered on both of em to get Bb and C respectively?

(one of these questions impliedly amends my earlier speculation)

9

Good questions! Let’s see if I’m understanding.

I was a little confused with the “F/Cmin key signature” comment. F major’s relative minor is D minor (1 flat). C minor is the relative minor to E-flat major (2 flats).

Back to your modes questions. (I’m talking in actual notes now. Not relative to the D whistle.) So when playing in F major of the piece, F is tonic (xxx ooo). So all the notes from F major are used during the melody (F G A B-flat C D E F). The chord progression is fairly typical (I IV V I IV…V I). So the chords and the melody revolve around the I (F), creating an F ionian (major) sound. If it were myxolydian, it would revolve around the V (C7) and C would be tonic.

So my answer would be neither gapped myxolydian, nor gapped aeolian! Just straight up F ionian. You just need the C whistle for that occasional note below tonic (such as going down to the bell note-the 5th of the scale).

Am I making sense?

Here is a clip of the piece on Amazon. Listen to the the RealPlayer clip for track “1. Freedom”. What luck!! They just happened to sample the part when the penny whistle comes in!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00005173R/102-7472122-5314555?v=glance&n=5174

10

Possibly they wouldn’t understand it 'cos it’s bollocks? Since when has a C whistle been a Bb instrument, or a Bb whistle “a transposing Ab instrument”? Oh please tell me, I’ve always wanted to be one of “The Few” ever since Churchill said such nice things about them.

11

But Gary it’s sooo simple, an F whistle due to the gapped nature of it’s modal mixamatosian enharmonic modal structure, has in orchestral terms to be considered a Bflat, unless the gapping of it’s disjunct movement falls into the area of an orgasmic fifth in which case it has to be considered a C.

12

bit of a mixed reality…actually! :laughing:

13

I will listen to the clip in a min. btw thanx for the clip on the ear for the Cmin typo - i’ve fixed it now.

actually, mate, i had moved on from the modal element in my gas work :slight_smile: my latest question was simply which notes you were using on your C whistle and I reckoned it was all of em except the B which was xfingered for Bb and my reckoning has been confirmed by what you said.

You havent answered me about what notes you play on the D whistle. I reckon you aren’t playing the F sharp or the C# and if this is the case then, in effect, adducing both whistle activity you are playing the notes of F/Dmin key signature, namely F G A Bb C D E etc. and that would be why the notator did the sheet in that key signature.

it was meant for low F whistle and the fact that it is (or can) interpreted on two complementary smaller whistles does not detract from the logic of its notation.

are you suggesting that musicians who read sheet music use it as tablature instead?

I will listen to the clip now

14

the clip was fun. the scale is F major and the melody line is Ionian resolving at F. I have played along several times with a little F Gen. and my F bansuri which = low F whistle in pitch. On the bansuri its best that I play it mostly in the second octave.

now what is it you are playing on that D whistle? :sunglasses:

15

There is a modulation a little later to G major. Exact same line as what is played in F. So it is just played on a D whistle with the exact same fingerings as used on the C whistle.

Steáfán Hannigan & David Ledsam state what I’m trying to get out nicely in The Low Whistle Book:

“A note to music arrangers - The D whistle is a concert pitch instrument…All other whistles are transposing instruments. It is easy to learn to read music on the concert instrument, but much more difficult to follow when confronted with transposing keys…I would recommend that when arranging for the whistle, all music should be written as for a D whistle (C concert). If another key is needed then an instruction of what whistle to use should be specified in the whistle part, and the score; the whistle part being transposed to suit the key. The score, of course, would be at concert pitch, un-transposed.”

Personally, I would love it if arrangers and transcribers would use this method. Obviously, from the official score to Freedom, they don’t!

I agree, this melody sounds nice on a traditional sounding whistle. I use my new Freeman tweaked Gen. C and a Sindt D when we play the tune live. Of course, volume isn’t an issue since I’m mic’d.

p3

16

Interesting. and how is that notated in F key signature on your sheets? with 2 accidentals? or is ther some convention about these things?

P3 that is a comment for those writing for whistle music in the ITM type context where D is the king and not in an orchestral situ. see my point?
I dont want to type too much if you get my point already.

17

No. It’s a typical modulation. When you modulate from the key F major to the key of G major, the key signature goes from 1-flat (B-flat) to 1-sharp (F-sharp).

I just did a quick search on Google to find a picture of some music with modulations. This is an example of going from the key of E major to F major to D major to E flat major to C major to B flat major, etc etc.
http://web.aanet.com.au/music/sound/modulations2.gif

I see your point. But in ensemble music where each instrument’s part is written out individually, even if the instrument is not the feature instrument, the individual’s part is written to that instrument’s specific tuning.

Maybe this will illustrate my point. I searched Google again for conductor’s scores. Look at http://sacredinstrumentalpress.com/images/Like%20a%20River%20Glorious%20score.jpg
So notice how all the C instruments (flute, oboe, trombone, tuba, violin) have their parts written in the key of F major, all of the B-flat instuments (clarinet, trumpet, bass clarinet) have their parts written in G major, all the E-flat instuments (E-flat saxophone) have their parts written in D major. This is because a C on a trumpet (a B-flat instrument) is equal to B-flat on a piano (also a C instument). Their pitches are named differently. So if you gave the trumpet player the piano music and he played exactly what was written, the notes would sound whole step lower than what the piano was playing (not a very good sound!) So the trumpet player would have to transpose up a whole step to compensate for the fact that he is reading music written for a C instrument. In ensemble music, when the parts are written for each instrument, it is written in a key specific for that instruments tuning. (Just an aside, a lot of the time, the composite score will show all of the insruments in C concert pitch just to keep the conductor from losing his mind!) To make it easier on the player, they aren’t required to transpose to their specific instrument. If that weren’t the case, imagine the poor sax player (E-flat instrument) reading music for a C instument! They’d have to transpose every note on the sax up 9 half steps (or down 3 half steps and remember to play up an octave!) Sax may not “be king” on that tune, but let’s certainly not torcher him by making him transpose!

I say all of that to say, I feel a whistle player’s part in orchestral music should be written in a key comfortable to read for the whistle player. If I were handed music in G-sharp major, I could do it but it would be a pain. If I were using a G-sharp whistle, I’d have to think in terms of 6-hole note=G#, 5-hole note is A#, 4-hole note is B#, 3-hole note is C#… Then if the music modulates to A major, grab my A whislte and now suddenly 6-hole note=A, 5-hole note is B, 4-hole note is C#, 3-hole note is D…holy crap! Would be nice if the music was written in D major and there is note sying “G# whistle” then later, still in D major with a note “A whistle”. As we know, this is not always the case. Especially when everyone is handed piano music!

This fun!

18

of course it should be written that way…they do for every other transposing instrument.
The key of the whistle should be noted and the whistle part should be written for the named whistle.

19

of course it does. and?
the thing is you said the stuff was written in F and then you gave this eg

<<MI just did a quick search on Google to find a picture of some music with modulations. This is an example of going from the key of E major to F major to D major to E flat major to C major to B flat major, etc etc.
http://web.aanet.com.au/music/sound/modulations2.gif>>

which clearly shows different key signature to express mod.
therefore thats the answer to my question. that modulation is notated by changing key signature for the part. perhaps I am not understaning your short cut techno talk.

and if the composer had a low F whistle in mind for to play the notes of F sign. it is appropriate to notate in that signature and then change the signa. for the modul. part. if the stuff was notated as if though for a D whistle then how would you show a modulation WITHOUT changing key signature?

btw, i never seen boehm flautists change flutes, nor any other orchestral type changing instruments (hey, dont even mention percussion!) becuase they all have chromatic ocvereage. not so tin whistle. pls consider as pleasurable.

20

Sorry, Tal, I read my earlier post:

I wasn’t clear and was expecting some mindreading! I should have mentioned it starts in F major and later modulates to G major. Never in my previous posts did I state that!

There would be a note above the stave during the F major part saying “Soprano C Whistle” then at the mod a note saying “Soprano D Whistle”. I know, it seems mindless to just think of all whistle music in terms of D major (Bm), G major (Em) or A major (F#m). As a whistle player it is comfortable. The music is a good example of why we have to think in other keys. (What’s the deal?? I started out by criticizing the transcription and now I’m praising it??) I’m just saying in a perfect whistle world, this is how I would prefer my music written.

Your right, with chromatic instruments there is no need to change instruments! But there are B-flat and E-flat clarinets. There are several keys of saxophone and horn. And the old flute to piccolo switcheroo. But they would rarely make those switches in the middle of a piece. Diatonic harmonicas have to put up with the same thing whistle players do (the music would normally note which key of harmonica to use).