How is Scottish TM different from Irish TM?

A post by JackCampin on the “don’t like ITM” thread that whistle1000 started got me thinking …

How is it that Scottish trad music (esp. played on the whistle or fiddle) is different from Irish trad music. They are similar, and they both have their jigs and reels, 'though ITM is more into jigs, and STM has strathspeys. But you and I both know they are different. I have my definite preferences, and I’m sure you do to, but for this thread I’m not asking which is better.

Is there anything different about how the melodies go, or how the tunes are built?

What do I need to know about the style of whistle playing or ornamentation to play STM so it sounds Scottish (or Cape Breton)?

My two cents… I’ve noticed that the Scottish stuff I’ve looked at seems to go higher (i.e. more “above the staff” stuff) with a lot more usage of the high D’s and C’s (and higher sometimes). Also, it seems to have a lot more of what I would call “reverse syncopation” (I’m sure that’s the wrong term), where the sixteenth note comes before the dotted eighth. For non-dot inclined, I mean I seem to see a lot more dih-DAH than what I see in ITM. I think the ornaments are the same, however.

You should find that where STM has Strathspeys, ITM has “Highlands”.
ITM tends to be played legato (as far whistles are concerned).
Paired quavers are played simply in ITM, but in STM the first quaver tends to be shorted and the second lengthened, to give more “bite”. Jay Ungerer remarked that he preferred the STM syle of playing of his Ashokan Farewell.
ITM: BB
STM: B<B

-yeah… that’s the “Di-DAH” above.

There is a lot of crossover, but there is a particular kind of phrasing and preferred interval in each one.

(Waits to be demolished by the academics)…

Another interesting difference is written in ornamentation. I started with traditional (Scottish) bagpipes, and the 2 teachers I had, as well as the method books and music all had the exact ornamentation written in that they wanted. I assume this was due to it being in the context of a pipe band where you don’t want 30 guys playing different ornaments and the same melody, you want all the same ornaments for a cohesive, crisp sound.
The Irish books and mentality seems to just give you the melody, and encourage you to listen for how others are doing the ornament, and to create your own if desired.
Not that Scottish is prewritten, Irish is improvised, but that was my experience between pipes and ITM.

There is so much crossover between Irish and Scottish TM (espcially in the north) that the differences can be subtle at times.

I would take it back to the most simplistic difference between the 2 - Irish TM has D as its default key, Scottish TM has A.


David

I think you have to separate Scottish fiddle music from Scottish bagpipe music.

It has been said that Scottish fiddle music was a very different animal before James Scott Skinner got ahold of it, and that some of its earlier wildness and spirit can be heard in the music of Cape Breton since Nova Scotia was settled by Scots during the Clearances and thus maintained and evolved their music without Skinner’s influence. There’s a tendency for modern Scottish traditional fiddle music to have a very classical feel to it, as exemplified by fiddle clubs where the idea of a session is a room full of 40 fiddlers seated in rows, sawing away in front of sheet music, and I’ve heard claims that this mentality can be traced back to Skinner.

As for pipe music, I think one could say that in Scottish bagpipe music the means are as important as the ends, whereas in Irish music the end result is more important than how you get there. So ornamentation is less regimented/regimental and less prescriptive in Irish music than it is in most Scottish music. You do get individual teachers who are didactic and insist that a roll has to be fingered a certain way, or you have to cut with just this note etc., but your next Irish teacher might disagree and there’s much less consistency and uniformity across players.

I used to say that Scottish music was more “angular” and Irish music was more “round” but I’m not so sure that’s a useful distinction; Irish music isn’t really legato by nature, it’s just that some musicians play that way; others play quite stacatto.

The right term is scotch snap. It’s the characteristic that turns a reel into a strathspey.

Thanks! Didn’t know that, although “scotch snap” has a slightly different connotation at our sessions! :laughing:

Pat

I have an impression that short-long pairs ‘less dotted’ than scotch snaps are more common in Scottish music than in Irish, cropping up occasionally in jigs and waltzes for example. I may be wrong though.

There are differences in a lot of respects, and historical reasons for them.

Scotland was in an unusual position in the late 18th century, politically subservient to the British state but with substantial economic and cultural independence (the Hanoverians weren’t ripping us off like Thatcher did with the oil revenues). So it was strongly motivated to use national music as an assertion of identity, and it had a wealthy class that was willing to pay for it. So it developed a sizable music business that took the idiom and raw material of Scottish folk music and elite-ified it, creating complicated dance tunes and slow airs that were aimed at virtuoso display and often dedicated to rich patrons. (The raw material was mainly a mix of Lowland song and Highland pipe music, not much distinguished since this was a consciously national project). Irish landowners did that to a far lesser extent, and English ones hardly at all, since they had no pressing national cultural project to back and no reason not to patronize the pan-European genre of art music. There were English dance assemblies like the Scottish ones, documented in tunebooks, but they didn’t make a point of Englishness, and English tunes weren’t set off from the Scottish, French or Irish ones.

The result was that by 1800, Scotland had acquired a corpus of very sophisticated folk-derived instrumental music that nobody else in Western Europe could match. England and Ireland both had a musical culture divided into rather marginal and isolated musicians working as rural dancemasters, and an elite that played Italianate music in big houses. It took another three generations before the Irish started catching up with the Scots, and the English never did.

So the historical background to Scottish “trad” is that it wasn’t particularly trad at all, and came out of a very solid and active urban culture of dance and public performance. That’s never really gone away - Continental waltzes, quadrilles, polkas, sand dances and what-have-you American dance forms never supplanted the older stuff. And by the age of recording and broadcasting, the Irish church stomped on the free expression of indigenous dance at the same time as the British Royal Family decided to patronize the Scottish variety. (With mixed results in both instances).

The result is that it’s rare to find a Scottish tune session where at least some of the players haven’t played for social dancing. So the tunes get played in a way that suits that: much more definite accentuation than in ITM, with the beat underlined by harmony instruments (accordion for most of the 20th century). In the accordion and fiddle club scene the difference is even more marked, with snare or kit drums marking out the beat as well (this is only loosely associated with the session scene, but it does have a continuing influence) . And for social dance, the tune sets tend to be fairly fixed. (In the case of Scottish country dance, they are so rigidly prescribed that you really can’t do it without sheet music however good you are, the repertoire is too big and you can’t fake it - RSCDS players aren’t often found in sessions, but again they have an influence).

There are homogenizing tendencies. There’s a new market for highly virtuosic music which is primarily aimed at the concert stage and recordings. A lot of younger players mainly do this sort of thing. It can be hard to tell whether they’re coming from a Scottish or Irish (or French, or English, or Norwegian…) idiom unless they tell you.

One main difference is that most Scottish tunes are in the key of A.
Irish tunes are in D or G. The reason being the Irish alphabet was longer. :smiley:

Thanks for the insights JackCampin.

I hope this question isn’t a can o’ worms, but isn’t there some overlap of Irish and Scottish music in Ulster?

I haven’t personally experienced the Ulster scene, but there does seems to be a minority that tries to politicize the Scottish tradition as it’s made its way over there, trying to make it a Protestant shibboleth without being too explicit about it. This is a fairly recent thing, and I don’t think much of it.

Lots of tunes have travelled both ways over the Irish Sea - in particular, Scottish reels that are widely played all over Ireland (look up Alois Fleischmann’s “Sources of Irish Traditional Music” for the details). But playing styles haven’t travelled nearly as much (or rather, they have travelled as far as Australia, but they’ve stayed tied to the parent genre, so somebody playing an originally-Scottish tune in an Irish session will play it in the Irish way wherever they are, even if that Irish session is in Scotland).

At a variety of Irish and Scottish fiddle workshops I have asked the presenters about that, and here’s one answer from a technical end that helps – in Scottish music they tend to articulate more with the right hand and in Irish more with the left. Obviously fiddlers in both traditions use both hands plenty, just more on balance with the one hand than the other. In Scottish music the bow leaves the string from time to time, and this is rare in Irish. For this reason, I think tounging is more appropriate to whistle playing STM. There also aren’t really rolls in Scottish (though there are sometimes gracenote combinations that resemble rolls.

In a Strathspey when you have a short-long-long-short note sequence you might use a big downbow on that first short note,

Today, and probably for the last 100 years, the highland bagpipes have had a strong influence on Scottish music. A large part of highland piping culture is, and has been, competition. Competition favors virtuoso renditions of tunes (both band and solo). It’s not that the means are as important as the ends, but that the desired end (a virtuoso performance) pretty much requires certain means.

Pipe band competition fosters creativity and composition. There are a lot of tunes in modern Scottish repertoire that have come directly from the piping competition scene.

If you took a given tune and had both an ITM fiddler and an STM fiddler play it, someone who was familiar with the styles would easily pick out which was which. Explaining why might not be so easy.

Well, they say the Irish invented whiskey and the Scots perfected it… and if you start from there, then everything else falls neatly into place, naturally, on it’s own. :laughing:

I once suggested to an Irish player who shall remain nameless that dorian mode tunes seemed to predominate in Irish music while mixolydian one seem to in Scottish. I was trounced roundly, but I still think there may be something to it though of course you’ll find plenty of other modes (see Jack Campin’s site for all sorts of detail).

It seems to me too that there are more tunes clearly in a major key in the Scottish repertoire. But understand these conclusions are based on my contact with the two traditions as an outsider.

It is definitely the case that the Scottish tradition grew up around trained musicians rather than around local (and often very fine) amateurs. Written music collections abound in Scotland but not in Ireland early on. The result seems to be a more consistent style and approach throughout the country rather than the more regional styles of Ireland, though I’ve limited data on which to base that statement.

It seems to me too that in most players the difference in style of playing is readily identifiable as Scots or Irish though I don’t think I can articulate the difference.

OK…those are my opinions. Jack C. and others more knowledgeable correct away!!

On a highland pipe chanter an A tonic results in mixolydian while a D tonic results in major. D is the highest note on the chanter that has a 5th above it.

Despite the fact that I write a lot about the contribution of pipers to Scottish TM, one should not conclude that fiddlers and other instrumentalists have not also made huge contributions! Especially in the past. I just happen to be immersed in piping culture, so it’s easy to see the impact on the larger world (of STM, which isn’t all that big a world, in the grand scheme).

There are some comparisons of different ways with the same tunes in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDCIKxL-hEY . Willie Hunter’s introduction to what they are doing starts at about 1.25 Shetland rather than ‘Scottish’ is prominant, Irish comes in near the end.

Breathnach thought there was no difference in frequency of occurrence of the different (heptatonic) modes between Ireland, England and Scotland. I suspect there might be if you took gapped modes into account, but it would be a difficult thing to get definite answers to : “what counts as..?” would keep getting in the way.

What is different is range and the choice of tonal centres. Scottish music (thanks to GHB influence) has lots of tunes in two sharps with a range of a ninth, with the tonal centre usually A or D. Irish music tends to use a whistle-like range, D-b, centred on D or G. Both can drop to the G string for more fiddle-istic tunes, though there are more of these complex tunes in the Scottish repertoire.

Certainly Scottish music has been more the product of professionals, back to the middle of the 18th century. I think it’s also used notation much more regularly - there are lots of surviving manuscript books compiled for their own use by players all over the country and not necessarily from any sort of privileged background. By 1800, just about every instrumentalist in Scotland must have had access to somebody who could read tunes from a book, even if they couldn’t do it themselves. So tunes tended to stay close to their first printed form. (A telling anecdote: when Simon Fraser published his book of Highland tunes in 1816, he hoped to make a lot of money on sales to Nova Scotia. So he shipped hundreds of copies over there, only to find that he’d already been undercut by a plagiarized edition. That adds up to a lot of musically literate Scottish emigre players).

ITMer here with little real Scots contact heretofore, but FWIW, I’m lately working with a Scot who counts a difference in Western Scottish music/playing from the rest.