What’s the difference in instruments & music? Gaelic has subtle differences between the two, which I’m trying to learn har har, but does the music also? From my research, both had virtually the same instruments. I’m of Scots descent (a transplanted Stewart in Ohio) & all of the musical info is Irish. Just real curious.
Candi
There may be some answers for you here.
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=43607
As long as this is on the flute board, let’s give props to Phil Smillie, a fluter in Scottish TM. You don’t hear about him much at all but he is a very good player, the equal of the “big names” of Irish music.
Great guy too! I saw the Tannies a couple of years ago, an had a nice chat with him. The group has been together for 30 years!
Indeed! I saw them last Fall. . . went to the show, got the T-shirt. (Literally!) Unfortunately I didn’t get to do the “adoring groupie” post-concert chat, but it was a great concert.
He kept doing this odd thing when whistling - it looked like he would pop the top hand holes by taking off his bottom hand and slapping the whistle with it.. . . I have yet to see anything like it.
I got a T shirt when I saw them too, nice Tee’s! The Adoring groupie thing is a little hard for me to do, but at least I can talk flutes… He was playing a Eb Hawkes & sons that had just developed a huge crack in the barrel coming to the USA, he had clamped the barrel. That would be a tough thing when you are on tour!
Jon
I could point out some of the fundamental rhythmn differences (the tachum, Scotch snap), ornamentation purpose and placement, the influence of piping, dancing, language and cultural, and on and on.
But, the primary difference I’ve found is that players of Irish music tend to want to get together and play with others, and players of Scottish music tend not to want to do this.
Best, John
There are other Scottish musicians?
But, the primary difference I’ve found is that players of Irish music tend to want to get together and play with others, and players of Scottish music tend not to want to do this.
Rubbish.
Well, one difference is that a few Scots tunes are in Bb, I think. Irish, if I’m not mistaken, tends to gravitate towards D and G. I think there also may be a bit more of a Norse influence on Scots culture than on Irish. I don’t know whether this translates over to the music or no.
All the above should be taken with the biggest grain of salt you can find. Note the heavy usage of words and phrases such as “I think” “may be” and “don’t know.”
I had a great time in Scotland playing with traditional musicians in the Highlands and around Findhorn. Maybe that was because we had sessions where nobody got paid and we came together for the craic rather than for the measly fee that bored Irish session musicians usually get paid.
But the way I heard it was: When Irish musicians want to have some tunes they get together and play some tunes.
When Scottish musicians want to have some tunes first they set a precise time, name the society, then they elect a president, then they elect a secretary to take notes…
(Just a joke Pam)
Well, one difference is that a few Scots tunes are in Bb, I think.
Rubbish. Tunes played on the Bflat pipes may be in Bflat, but are rarely played indoors.
The same tunes played on A Border or Smallpipes are in A - and often played at sessions.
There are at least 6 local sessions near me… in Highland Perthshire, and they are very sociable.
Rubbish…rubbish…rhubarb… off to play my new smallpipes by myself!!! rubbish…rubbish…
Well now, I didn’t say they were all in Bb now did I? And a little leeway should be provided to a former pipe band member I think…
Hi, Candi. Some answers for you at these previous discussions: [ if the links work ]
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=26902&highlight=scottish+difference+irish
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=5296&highlight=scottish+difference+irish
Coincidence – I was playing tunes with Phil Smillie on Sunday night [ and well into Monday morning. ] The “Tannahill Weavers” were playing at Dougie McLean’s 4-day “Perthshire Amber” Festival in Pitlochry. Some good music played at the “end of festival” party. We hadn’t met up for about 3 years. He’s still playing great.
jmccain – any Scots musicians in your part of the world may be as you describe – I wouldn’t know – but that’s not my experience anywhere else on the planet, and particularly not in Scotland.
Cofaidh - although the pipes are pitched – approximately – in Bb, when any other instruments play pipe tunes we naturally transpose them into concert pitch. Some fiddle music is indeed in Bb, but I would guess it is not even near 1% . The main single difference in keys used in Scottish and Irish music is that “A” major is much more common in Scottish than in Irish. “Flat” keys are also more common in Scottish fiddle playing than in Irish, but would be more likely to be played in a performance situation rather than in a session.
Differences in instruments played too. Scotland has mainly the Highland pipes, and more recently, the smaller more social “small-pipes” in all their various forms, the fiddle, the piano accordion and the clarsach [ small harp ]. Ireland has its’ own unique uilleann pipes, the fiddle, more likely the button-accordion. Harp, like fiddle , and to a lesser extent, the whistle, is common to both traditions. Ireland has in addition far more players of instruments such as concertina, tenor banjo, and flute.
David Johnson’s books are especially fun and easy to read. Jack Campin also has a couple CD’s available with a lot of historical references and information about flute tunes. I am enjoying the Embro CD now. I’ve put some links below. Also, check out the link at the bottom for a little blurb on modern differences in Irish and Scottish music quoting Kevin Crawford..
Campin, Jack. (2002). Embro, Embro: the hidden history of Edinburgh in its music, CD-ROM. http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/jack/.
Johnson, David. (1984). Scottish Fiddle Music in the Eighteenth Century: A Music Collection and Historical Study.
Johnson, David. (2003). Music and Society in Lowland Scotland in the 18th Century.
Purser, John. (1993). Scotland’s Music: A History of the Traditional and Classical Music of Scotland from Earliest Times to the Present Day.
http://www.scotlandsmusic.com/eastcoastfiddlestyle.htm.
http://www.scotlandsmusic.com/westcoastfiddlestyle.htm.
http://www.ltscotland.org.uk/nq/resources/musicofscotland/GAELIC/agaelic.htm
http://www.sunspotpro.com/info_scottish_irish_style.html
Cheers!
Candi,
If you can get your hands on one of the early Celtic Fiddle Festival albums, have a listen to the difference in playing between Kevin Burke and the late Johnny Cunnigham. While they both certainly have personal styles, it’ll give you a good sense of the stylistic difference between Scottish and Irish music. The main difference is the rhythm and the phrasing.
B
The more I delve into traditional Scottish music the more I learn how thick the bubble in which pipers and pipe band players exist is. In other words the majority of pipers know f$*k all about Scottish music.
Hard work and experience on the pipes make an excellent entrée into the broader music as there are vestiges of piping’s previous other roles in the traditional repertoire. The pipes may be the king of Scottish music but the tradition is more like chess and the fiddle is the queen.
I found this article kind of interesting. I hope I’m not violating copyright or anything by posting it, but it’s cited…
Celtic Contrast
Two noted bands coming to town illustrate the often overlooked differences between the Scottish and Irish musical traditions
By Scott Alarik, Boston Globe Correspondent
Published March 21, 2003
The music of Ireland and Scotland tends to get tossed into the same Celtic bin. And since most Celtic bands, whether from Ireland, Scotland, or other Celtic-rooted cultures, look much the same – with an assortment of fiddles, flutes, accordions, guitars, and pipes pumping out jigs, reels, and waltzes – it can be easy to do.
But Irish and Scottish music are remarkably different. This weekend and next, the sonic distinctions between them will be made clear when two celebrated bands take local stages.
Tonight, sizzling Irish band Lunasa plays the Somerville Theatre, and next Friday the sublime Scottish quintet Old Blind Dogs performs at Lexington’s First Baptist Church. Lunasa brings an ornamental glee and jazzlike precision to its jigs and reels, with a blend of traditional reverence and modern savvy that led The Washington Post to dub it ‘‘the Bothy Band meets the Flecktones.’’
The Old Blind Dogs’ sound is defined by the soft baritone of Jim Malcolm. But when they perform instrumentals, they do so with a muscular drive that is uniquely Scottish.
While both Irish and Scottish music are melodic, Scottish music seems more rhythm-driven. Irish music, on the other hand, is punctuated with trills and grace notes. Lunasa flutist Kevin Crawford says people think Irish music is faster than Scottish, because of the ornamentation. But making room for these trills tends to slow Irish tempos. The result is a dramatic difference in sound. Scottish fiddling is much more bow-driven, giving it a throatier sound. Irish fiddling is defined by ornamentation played by the left hand, resulting in a more intricate style. Crawford describes this as Ireland’s ‘‘rolling, flowing’’ approach, and says Scottish music is ‘‘more choppy and faster.’’
Scottish singer Malcolm, meanwhile, describes the distinction differently. ‘‘The Irish tend to ‘skiddly-diddle’ more than we do,’’ even vocally, he says. '‘It can take an Irish singer a half-hour just to sing the line, `One morning in May.’ ‘’
Boston fiddler Hanneke Cassel is fluid in both countries’ styles. A US Scottish National Fiddle Champion who plays in the band of Irish-American singing star Cathie Ryan, Cassel says the differences may lie in the influence of the bagpipes on Scottish music.
She points out that, while both musics share the sprightly 6/8 jig, 2/4 hornpipe, and 4/4 reel, the Scottish repertoire also has the strathspey, a cousin to the reel, and marches not commonly found in Irish music.
Lunasa’s Uilleann piper, Cillian Vallely, explains that his Irish pipes are able to play nearly anything a fiddle or flute can. ‘‘The Uilleann pipes’ chanter has a chromatic two-octave scale, so you can play in a lot more keys. The chanter on the Highland pipes, the part that plays the melody, has eight notes, which influences the sound of the music. Because of the number of notes, the tunes tend to be more driving, rhythmic, high-pitched, and forceful.’’
The differences in vocal traditions are even more pronounced. In Irish music, the vocal and instrumental repertoires have always been distinct, with singing done primarily a cappella until the 20th century. In Scotland, they have been melded for centuries.
Why? Malcolm has a one-syllable response. ‘‘Burns. Robert Burns is our Shakespeare – not just our greatest poet, but the genius who codified our culture,’’ Malcolm says. ‘‘He took a lot of the fiddle tunes and wrote words to them, as well as writing his own songs, and collecting, rearranging, and preserving 600 traditional songs. That brought the two traditions together.’’
Many distinctions were informed by the ways the cultures dealt with the common problem of British colonial domination. Because Scotland largely accepted its colonial status after the 1745 rebellion, British society found its traditions acceptable, even fashionable.
Irish music was more harshly repressed, by both politicians and the Catholic Church, which saw it as innately licentious. The music tended to be played in homes and pubs, away from the ears of authority. The result is that it was much less altered by revisionist influences. About this, Malcolm is clearly envious.
‘‘Irish culture was more of a rebel culture,’’ he says, '‘where Scottish culture became very kind of trendy. That tended to push Irish traditional music ahead of the Scottish when Ireland became a republic, and Scotland remained in the commonwealth. So Irish culture has had a lot more time to organize itself, regroup, and revive their music on its own terms, which is why I think it is much more advanced around the world. In North America, we always feel like we’re in the slipstream of the Irish.’
That’s a fairly informative article. Thanks for that.
It is a moderately informative and fairly enjoyable to read article, but it over-generalizes a great many things and is the product of people with strong but not necessarily well-researched opinions.
In terms of ornamentation, I think these comments are particularly reflective of the fiddle. Scottish piping uses ornaments that are far more complex than those typically found in uilleann piping and it uses them a whole lot more often (although it doesn’t have the facility for “tight” playing like uilleann piping does). Traditional Scottish fiddling, by contrast, does not typically use any rolling, although I imagine most any accomplished Scottish fiddler these days would be well acquainted with rolls from playing Irish tunes.
The rise of a generation of indenpendently-minded, indescribably talented Scottish pipers like Angus, Allan and Iain MacDonald of Glenuig, Fred Morrison, and the late, great Gordon Duncan has irrevocably altered the state of Scottish piping and Scottish music in general. I don’t think it can fairly be said anymore that Irish music is “faster” than Scottish music. Gordon Duncan could take tunes at speeds that would’ve made even Sean McGuire wince. Also the impact of Cape Breton music on young Scottish musicians has been huge–gone are the days of the clompy, almost 12/8-sounding strathspey played with melodramatic gusto. At most Scottish sessions these days, all the strathspeys (and many of the reels) you would hear would be played in the Cape Breton style (although some Scottish musicians would be more inclined to call it the “old Scottish” or “sean-nos” style).
One other thing to note is that there is HUGE historical overlap in the repertoire going back…well, a long, long way. There were plenty of cases of harpers and pipers going back and forth between the two countries. More recently, the “Golden Age of Scottish Fiddling” in the late 18th Century meant that a whole gaggle of Scottish tunes got widely published. These tune collections wound up in the hands of well-to-do landed-gentry-type musicians in Ireland and then got passed on to musically illiterate musicians who adapted the tunes into their respective local oral traditions. A Scottish musician could argue that all the best Irish reels are actually Scottish…and just about be right. An Irish musician could of course respond that the Irish improved on them, though.