Do many folk here pay in flat keys? such as C instead [as well] as D F instead of G G instead of A etc Obviously pipers with flat sets do! but are many folk interested in joining them on fiddle, banjo whistle etc? just curious. A few years ago I got into playing a tone down so as to play with an old friend who learnt all his tunes like this on a C melodian. The more i do it the more I enjoy it, particularly on fiddle it offers so many great opportunities for double stops and different variations and quite often tunes are easier a tone down! It also breathe new life into old tunes.
Recently at a session with this friend we played Boys of blue hill, my first ever tune which I cant have played n 20 yrs+ Another fiddler who confided she couldn’t stand the tune, was pleasantly surprised at it in C.
Anyone up for a C session at Miltown!?
Well, since you live in the center of the ITM universe and have been at it for so many years, you must know what folk usually do about flat keys. You must also know that many musicians retune their instrument to flat keys (or Eb!) so banjos, fiddles etc can become a ‘flat’ instrument quite easily. Many box players have different instruments in different keys to be able to play in these C and Bb sessions.
I would say only a minority of musicians will keep their standard tuning and learn a bunch of standard tunes in non-standard keys, there’s a few tunes there and there I play in different keys, just to make sure I can follow along different players and instruments. There’s quite a few tunes that are known to have more than only one standard session key, take Foxhunter (sick of it!) for example, popular in G with flutes etc and A on fiddle.
yes of course, but thats not the question! if I wish to retune the fiddle [of which i have no need as I have 5 strings ] then I would just do so. But thats not the point, the point is that by playing the tunes in flat keys, on the un-retuned instrument, a wealth of opportunities open up for expression, its great fun and I recomend it on many levels because the process has been very eye opening. Yes fox hunters for example, so you do this for one tune, I do it for many tunes. In your example can you think of any differences it opens to you for ornamentation? eg now that fingered strings become open strings; double stops for example, when you play it in A you have the open A string to drone, but in G not. so this is a l benefit there are many more .
Also this can breathe new life into old tunes. say the star of Munster, normally in Am but I play it much more often in Gm, very different, yet same tune. Many tunes really benefit, some dont, by this and My musical expression of all the tunes I play has improved form this practice! And as I say so much easier for many tunes, using the A instead of top B means the A string can drone with the fg and a on the top string and the fingered d also!
I was asking mainly if other players had experimented with this… As I also play a flat set of pipes this is of interest to me as a piper. and my C whistle is getting much more use now!
I was also influenced by the playing of Paddy Canny and other fiddlers from this area who play tune normally in Am in Gm ,its a bit of a local tradition in fact. supposedly from fiddlers playing with a piper on a flat set. They dont retune their fiddles, they play in flat keys!
I just spent a few minutes looking on the net for some of Will’s clips, but I think you must have removed them all, Will. A shame. I wanted to show people how well you’d done with your ornamentation/rhythm/tuning etc so they could see what they’re up against.
Your post has some relevance to the subject Ben? No Ive removed no clips. But I do recall only ever putting 2 fiddle clips up; One of the rights of man in Dm on Viola and one of a set of 3 jigs in Gm, a paddy Canny tune, a paddy Fahy tune and a Sean Ryan tune. Do you play many tune in flat keys Ben ? if you dont, and your not interested in doing so, or the subject in question then what are you up to on this thread?
Oh, there were more than that. I mean, obviously the demise of Sound Lantern hasn’t helped, but then there was one in Hawaiian shirts that was particularly good …
Meanwhile, I play in all sorts of keys. Doesn’t seem to make much difference. 'Cept I’m not so keen on E flat, for some reason. I had to play along with a Country ‘n’ Western song in A flat, mind, the other day - plus ‘take a verse/chorus’. Funnily enough, no-one else joined in (guitarist + capo, why on earth he couldn’t have put it either up or down a semitone is beyond me).
No there were not ben. there were a couple of rusty banjo clips, a couple of whistle and a couple of fingerpicked guitar some Spanish guitar , a couple of mandolin. no trad fiddle clips on sound lantern at all apart from a jam with a guitarist on his song the first time id ever heard it. Fact.
Im talking about trad tunes ben, after all this is a trad music forum. not a C&W forum!
Im specifically talking about tunes like the Galway rambler in F rather than G, for example. I find it easier to play in F. Doing so offers opportunities for interesting variation.
So specifically do you play trad tunes in flat keys?
what do you gain from it, examples?
why do you do so?
What does doing so offer for you?
do you play many in C and F instead of D and G?
why? why not?
This is the thread, please dont derail or highjack it. If you wish to discuss something else, start your own thread eh? cheers
Touchy touchy! No hijack here. I thought you said it was about flat keys? C isn’t a flat key - why did you mention that one “specifically”? F doesn’t seem all that flat to me. Common enough key in fiddle playing. B flat occurs, but not all that much. Playing with pipers in “flat” sets is another matter, and can involve tuning to a different pitch anyway, so the old, traditional, “flat” sets weren’t in ‘modern’ concert at any pitch. I talked to a very well-known fiddle player a couple of years ago, who sometimes plays with a piper who has a “flat” set. It’s a little over a tone flat, actually nearly a tone and a half. She said she keeps a fiddle tuned down for that purpose (which, rightly or wrongly, I took to mean that she wouldn’t dream of risking her ‘normal’ fiddle by tuning it down for the purpose).
Bottom line: if you’re talking about playing tunes normally in D and G in C and F instead, then no need to re-tune, and no big deal either. Anything else may be something else.
By flat keys, I mean playing as I said a number of times in flat keys. now your understanding of flat keys is clearly different. I use the expression as a piper who plays a flat set in C.. There are no ‘flats’ in C major, as in classical terminology but Im speaking as a trad musician, not classical. Though obviously there is one in F. and more if you count accidentals.
Commonly we use the expression ‘flat keys’ to indicate keys that are not standard but flatter than concert pitch.
I chose C and F because I play a lot of tunes in C and F. Were I to venture to B or Bb I would probably retune.
No big deal? no one said it was Ben, but it does see like there are few and far between who regularly play in flat keys. I dont mean tunes like O’Dowds or Humours of westport or hole in the Hedge etc, but typical D/G tunes played flat, in C /F etc . So I play tunes such as Masons Apron in F, Galway rambler in F, Smash the windows Rambling pitchfork, old trad standards in C Banish misfortune, garret barrys in C mix etc.
The more I do so, the easier it gets to do it automatically. At first it required a real thought and concentration, I often had to print out the dots to tunes I already knew. I find it very interesting and rewarding and Im curious how others feel , if they have tried it. What they think about their experiences. If this is something familiar to you then it seems you are in a big minority. How did you get into it? why? what are your thoughts and feedback from your experience?
I have not met many trad musicians who do this so that explains my thread and ‘search’.
nonethe less most people IME would retune to play an evening in C/F etc. But for you its normal to transpose directly on your instrument in the manner I describe?
I’d reply to what seem to be questions, if I could understand a word of that last post. Trad musicians refer to C as a flat key? Not where I’ve been. I gave up on the rest. It’s probably because I’m “in a big minority”, whatever that means … 49%?
Well, you’d say a ‘flat’ session as far as I know. You’ll often hear of a “flat session in C” happening somewhere, same with Bb and Eb. But it all involves re-tuning your instrument. If you simply play a tune in C instead of D, you definitely won’t say “hey, want to play this tune in a flat key?”.
But of course, Will, in his allmighty knowledge if ITM and superb playing (which I’ve never heard but can only imagine) must know all of this.
What is your problem Azalin? If you dont have any interest in playing in flat keys then why post on the discussion? There is no need or call to be condescending and unpleasant? Eb is not a flat key is it? typically I would tune UP a semi tone or capo on a stringed instrument like the fiddle with a matchstick. I used to have a fiddle tunes up a semi tone all the time just for these occasions. I also have a fiddle permanently tuned down to C. But thats not the subject of the discussion is it? The thread is about playing trad tunes in flat keys such as C and F. to play with a C whistle for example.
big minority? yes I should have proof read that better! minority it should have read. . If you dont understand ben, what dont you understand? all seems perfectly clear and understandable to me. Exactly which bit did you not understand?
If your just playing games please stop. If you have no interest in the thread or exchange of knowledge then what are you here for?
I do believe we’ve come upon a new definition of flat key.
…an’ looked like a normal boring, rainy day here! 
I’ll need to think about Eb bein’ a sharp key for a bit…later
oh, oh, does this make the key of D the one key.
the key that binds and rules the others? 
I have a friend who plays harp. He really likes to play his harp in F. He says it sounds different in F – more sonorous or something.
I’ve found that my Bb whistle goes well with harp in F. This summer we’re going to get together and play some tunes with my wife, and I suggested a certain aire, in F, could sound really nice with a fiddle part. He wondered if she could play in F, since (in his experience) “most fiddlers don’t do flat keys.” She really plays violin though, so any key is just as good as any other to her, I think.
I love that! That’s brilliant!
Wait a minute though … wouldn’t that only work in the darkness?
I also have a few tunes that I play in b flat[which is of course a#]., I find them useful as exercises but Ialso enjoy the different sound of the key of Bflat, and can enjoy them on two levels, as exercises and as tunes,
every key has its own particular mood.
The key of e flat is also the key of d#.
don’t tell me that ya want yer keys bound in broad daylight 
I thought you were Brittish
hmmm, interesting problem,
I don’t suppose ya’d want yer keys unbound either 
Presumably D is the one key that will help me find them as well? (It probably shrieks when you clap or something.)
that was a whistle joke, wasn’t it 
Kind of like Lord of the Fipples? Or Lord of the Tone Rings perhaps?