WHY do pipes use a natural intonation tuning system.

Before you all start screaming “heretic”… I’m just asking the question why do pipes use this tuning.

And, why was it never changed.
I mean, so many instruments went through huge changes and developments from 1750 to 1850. Pipes did too, of course, but how come an equal temperment system was never adopted.

Flutes, clarintes, oboes, guitars, Harps and other instruments that you’d see in a music shop in Dublin in the early 1800’s were all moving toward a tuning system that was a lot closer to equal temperment. Did pipes ever follow that route?
Weren’t there ads from early makers claiming that their pipes can “play in perfect unison with violin, piano and german flute” I wonder were they claiming that their pipes were using a different tuning system or just ‘better’ than other local makers for sales purposes.

I know it can be argued that no wind instrument can ever be pitched in equal temperament but you can get pretty close. Thats a chat for a different day…

By looking at the tunes in O’Farrell and Colclough publications, in the early 1800’s pipers were playing tunes in Bb, A, C and F with keyed chanters.
Were those chanters tuned differently because if you play in A, your 3rd (a very important note in your scale) C# is supposed to be up to 15 cents flat. That won’t sound great.

And why would early makers have bothered to place keys on a chanter if they were using a natural intonation system. You can play an A or C or Bb scale quite easily on a fully keyed D chanter but a lot of those notes sound out of tune because of the natural intonation tuning on the D scale.

I know the natural intonation on a D scale works just perfect against the D drones but the provision of up to 8 keys on a chanter and a drones on/off switch leads me to believe that early makers had another system in mind.


So,
my questions are
Why did/do makers use a natural intonation system today.

Did makers like Kenna/Harrington ever get closer to an equal temperment tuning system?

and heres a chicken/egg theory,
Did the rise of the solo piper come from the fact that the chanter did not blend well with ‘violin, piano and german flute’ after all…


Though for the day…

Tommy

If UPs were to change tuning in the direction you suggest, the first thing that would have to be abandoned would be the drones, and since we still have drones today, I’m guessing that someone along the way said, “No, keep the drones.” You ask why we maintain the tuning system that is still in use today? To stay in tune with the drones, I’d say.

I suspect the earlier chanters would not have had keys for the accidentals, but that these were added later in the development at the request of those who were trying to play a wider range of popular music - popular for the time, that is.

djm

UPs were to change tuning in the direction you suggest,

I’m not suggesting that, I’m just asking why they use the system. Whats the historical reason, did pastoral pipes use the same system etc..

the first thing that would have to be abandoned would be the drones

For at least 150 years pipes have had a main drone switch and independant plugs before that. So pipers have had the option to ‘abandon drones’ at will for 200 years.

My point again,
Why have makers bothered to make semi-chromatic chanters and provide a method of turning off drones and yet provide a natural intonation tuning system.

I’m not saying it’s right or wrong I’m asking why. Did Kenna, Harrington et al have something else in mind that we don’t know about today.

Tommy

I had no idea you’d made your own separate thread, Tom; sorry!

Stuart

Basically you have a reference pitch given by the drones and the chanter has to be in tune with these and the harmonics they produce.

If the chanter were not tuned Just then it would never be in tune with the drones.

My guess is that the chanter keys and drone switch are there in case the Patron fancies listening to a bit of Bach.

Earliest reference I’ve come across to a piper playing with a piano would be Tom Kerrigan - vaudeville/Taylor Brothers era. Touhey played with a quartet too, probably fiddle/flute/pipes/piano. But who knows? Judging from recordings of Tom Ennis with piano I don’t think musicians were fanatically obsessed with making sure there weren’t any mildly beating dissonances. Incidentally if you listen to early Classical recordings you’ll hear a lot of funky tuning and timing too. The LP created the beyond-perfect set of standards that Classical musos now see as defacto.
Pipes aren’t perfectly in tune with guitars and bozoukis, either. That bother you, Tom? Physician, heal thyself!
If intervals for playing in A clashed mildly with the drones that was an acceptable price to pay, I think. Incidentally you could just look at “A” as simply being a quasi-key with all of its intervals perfectly in tune with D drones - Ennis wrote of something similar in the old article in Treoir, responding to people who thought the pipes were limited to three “keys;” I think he had this in mind.
Also I wouldn’t obsess over these music collections having music in these other keys in the first place - perhaps they were intended to be played on the flute or violin or piano. The pipers who could tackle technically challenging pieces like the Soldier T’red (a bit of quasi-classical music) were almost all blind, anyway; most gentleman pipers seem to have been amateurs.

O Man…What a subject to get lost in !
There was that evolving taste for home music making on the PIANO-FORTE, through out the 19th cent. and everything else, winds, fretted strings etc. had to be modified to play with pianos, which were NOT always tuned to our modern “equal temperment”.
For a really good, hard, look at the subject, check out Kyle Gann’s website:

http://www.kylegann.com/tuning.html

Mr. Gann is a “microtonal” composer who works with a tuning regimen called “Werkmeister lll” and as I understand it, the further out from C major that you modulate to (on the circle of 5ths, to the “sharp” keys, and the circle of 4ths,to the “flat” keys) the more interesting dissonances show up. The main result is each key has it’s own special “sound / character”. The absence of all the beating of sharp 3rds and flat 5ths of equal temperment isn’t THERE in the keys close to home (C major).
He has these sound samples on a programed electronic key board that he can change in concert, with a “flip of the switch”. REAL TIME, MAN!!!
One of the interesting things I learned from Gann, was the fact that J.S. Bach’s “Well Tempered Klavier” composition, popularized a tuning that was NOT equal temperment, as we know it, in modern times, even though that was the way it was presented to me (as a historical fact) in Music School.
Gann also goes on to say that our “beating” temperment is really the cause of all the nervousness in our society, and it’s the music we listen to,
day in, and day out.
I was attracted to the GHB pipes for really sweet scale you could get against the drones, IF you are willing to use the bees-wax or the electrical tape in and over the tone holes, and get those pure 4th and 5ths… the neutral 3rds and 6ths etc. that ARE possible…WOW ! What a sweet scale!!
Now it’s when you get into the 2nd octave on the Irish Pipes, that it gets quite a bit more tricky to get that same sweet intonation.
To skip back in history…my favorite subject…
The Pastoral Pipes were advertised by J. Geoghan as chromatic instruments, as capable of cross-fingered sharps and flats
as the Flutes and Hautboys (Oboes) of the mid 1700s.
These wind instruments were being purchased by the middle class Lowland Scots and English customers, by the bushel, so as to enable the “At-Homes” to play through their sheet music, composed by, more often than not, by G.F. Handel (who was when, a London resident).
In a conversation I had with Jonathan Swayne, Jon said it was really “False Advertising” on the part of Pastoral Pipe makers !!
("What ? Pipe makers making false claims ? Imagine that !)
The Irish Pipe makers were also in the running to service these same
middle class musicians and started putting on the keys, by 1800 at least, if not before, about the same time as Dunn and Peacock were adding keys
to the Northumbrian Small Pipes, for the same reasons (and to keep up with the fiddle tunes).
However, the very steep decline in the economy of Ireland throughout the 19th century, militated against further improvements in that country,
(even on Bagpipes, let alone everything else). So as the Pipe makers and Pipers immigrated to the USA, where some of the innovations and inventions continued to be made, AND where the price you could get for a set of Pipes and the playing of them, rose quite a bit…I believe that in the USA, the Irish Pipe makers were FREE of ENGLISH fashions in home music making. As Music Halls and Vaudeville stages were the venue for SOLO piping, more often than not, there wasn’t any real NEED to keep up with the modern instruments then being developed, E.G., keyed Brass instruments, Clarinets, Saxophones, the modern Flute, and so on.
As a High School band musician, I remember what a constant struggle it was, to play in “equal temperment”. We were always being told by the band directors that, “It doesn’t come tuned from the factory, you have to blow it in tune !” Later, I found out that most of the really good Brass bands like the “Americus Brass Band” modify their intonation, quite a bit, and they do have some very sweet “con-chords”. I had a chance to hear them “Live” in 1998, at Clairmont College, near L.A.
Now from my own experience, Church Choirs and Barbershop Quartets, which can sing, unaccompanied by Organs or Pianos, will adopt a more just intonation for singing. The same goes for String Quartets as the fretless finger boards of the Violins, Violas, Cellos, and Bass Viols, have an infinite number of points on the string, where you can adjust the intonation and get that sweet chording you’re looking for !
It always is dependent on the sensitivity of the player, of course,
SO…keep trying for those sweet scales and chords you sensitive…Pipers !
Sean Folsom

had no idea you’d made your own separate thread, Tom; sorry!

No bother at all, I think you got in while I was typing mine. Fair play too!

Basically you have a reference pitch given by the drones and the chanter has to be in tune with these and the harmonics they produce.

I understand that and agree too. I’m just wondering about the semi-tones produced by the keys and how they fit into a natural intonation scale. Am accidental here and there is one thing but a whole tune in Amaj…

My guess is that the chanter keys and drone switch are there in case the Patron fancies listening to a bit of Bach.

At last, a theory!! There’s plenty of European dance tunes in the early pastoral and union pipes tutors that would support this.
But did the pipers ask the makers to modify the pipes so they could play these trendy tunes or were makers keying up chanters so folk would buy them to play trendy tunes. Who were the inovaters.

Earliest reference I’ve come across to a piper playing with a piano would be Tom Kerrigan

Didn’t O’Farrell and Courtney play with ensembles in the Oscar and Malvina? Mind you, it seems to me that the music in that show was written with pipes very much in mind. Nice tunes but no need for a keyed chanter.
I suppose there was no keyed chanters in 1791 when it was written…


Judging from recordings of Tom Ennis with piano I don’t think musicians were fanatically obsessed with making sure there weren’t any mildly beating dissonances. Incidentally if you listen to early Classical recordings you’ll hear a lot of funky tuning and timing too.

All very true!

Pipes aren’t perfectly in tune with guitars and bozoukis, either. That bother you, Tom?

Oh no, not at all. If you examine the tuning of a guitar too you’ll find plenty of problems too.

Again I don’t have a problem with natural intonation. I enjoy the fact that it gives this great instrument a unique sound.
I’m just curious about the concept of a fully keyed chanter that uses natural intonation.

I guess Ennis was kind of saying that the ones who could afford a fully keyed chanter couldn’t use them anyway so learn the solid tunes first and see what you can do then…
Good advice!

Tommy

The idea of playing art music or, perhaps more accurately, “quasi-art music” on pipes seems at least as old as the uilleann pipes themselves, if not a good bit older. The Dixon collection of 1733, a collection of variation sets for Border pipes, contained one minuet, for instance. Joseph MacDonald’s 1760 work “A Compleat Theory of the Scots Highland Bagpipe” includes some choice words from the author concerning a bellows blown pipe (probably the pre-union pastoral pipes) with an extended range for playing “slow Scots airs, minuets, and Italian tunes”–something that MacDonald (who was also apparently a skilled violinist) regarded as an abomination for an instrument with drones.

There are a number of references to 19th century pipers playing Bach pieces on uilleann pipes, but I think these were generally in a solo context.

Just last week, I had the dubious honor of performing as a guest soloist with the Portland Symphonic Girls Choir for a Celtic-schmaltz extravaganza called “Who But I?” by some dude named Daniel Brewbaker. The piece had originally been premiered in Dublin several years ago with Joe McKenna on pipes. A quick glance at the score is enough to suggest that Mr. Brewbaker didn’t bother finding out f**k-all about uilleann pipes before writing the piece–passages that suddenly switch from the key of D to Bb, bits that go below the bottom D, and uses of accidentals that are near-impossible to play cleanly (apparently Joe McKenna thought so also–on the recording I was given, he didn’t bother playing most of the accidentals). Anyway, I was pretty nervous about playing this along with a pianist accompaniment because of the just tuning/equal temperment difference, but it sounded decent enough for the most part. The Bbs sounded a bit off, I seem to recall, but everything else seemed okay. Then again, I was more interested in just getting the damn thing over with so I might not have been paying the closest attention…

Sean–bit off-topic, but check out trumpet maker David Monette’s webpage http://www.monette.net. Really interesting stuff about re-designing the trumpet and its mouthpiece to get rid of all the built-in tuning flaws that cause you to have to lip notes up or down, change blowing angle, etc. He’s also designed a few “new generation” trombones and at least one tuba (I’d love to get one of his trombone mouthpieces for my ol’ peashooter at some point), but I remember him saying once in a lecture that trying to design a French horn that was in tune with itself was a total lost cause…

Whoops…got a little carried away with the “post” button.

One thing to keep in mind, this goes along with SportingPitchforks posts, is that 18th century England(perhaps the Scotland too, not sure though) was absolutely obsessed with Italian “art music”, which in this period was becoming more and more chromatic. This may have had an impact on the evolution of the union pipes.

Heretic!!!t

Isn’t music more tuned up nowadays, though? Ever since Eventide started marketing the Ultra-Harmonizer, I think. “Corrects” intervals to a pure form. No more “Wipe Out” guitar solos, Sean!

Also of note, I searched for “Out of Tune” music and one of the first hits was discussion at Session.org, an Irish muzik site. Give us an interval, lad!

There’s also something called the Just Intonation Network.

I believe that in the USA, the Irish Pipe makers were FREE of ENGLISH fashions in home music making. As Music Halls and Vaudeville stages were the venue for SOLO piping, more often than not, there wasn’t any real NEED to keep up with the modern instruments then being developed, E.G., keyed Brass instruments, Clarinets, Saxophones, the modern Flute, and so on.

Actually most of the Irish flute players in old photos taken in America look to have German or German-style instruments, like my Geo Cloos sticks (won another one on eBay today, too - PARTY!

). Rather flat F#, well, according to flute players anyway! American made wood flutes back then largely avoided the huge holes of English stuff, too.
Back to chanters, these somewhat “flat” notes were also often found on many British instruments. They weren’t making flutes for pipers to play with but if they did get together the flatness wouldn’t be an issue anyway, I don’t think. Wonder what pipe-friendly fluters like Molloy or McConnell have to say about this. Probably something unprintable, actually…
Like Sean says you can pitch anything on a fiddle and that seems to be the usual instrument associated playing with pipes back then.

Thank you Sean Folsom!!!

I wanted expert contributions and we got it!!
Mr Folsom does know his stuff..

I asked ‘why natural intonation’ and I got ‘drones, drones, its because of drones’…

I KNOW HOW, I WANT TO KNOW WHY!!!

Thanks Sean.

Tommy

OK Tom, you asked for it… :astonished:




It comes down to the physics/mathematics of the thing.

In theory you could construct any old scale you want - pentatonic, heptatonic, 10-tone, etc. etc., and through history and around the world there have been some odd ones indeed. While such a scale might sound strange to our ears, it might not be overtly dissonant as long as one only uses it for solo melodic passages[1].

However when one sounds two tones together, the business of dissonance/consonance immediately comes to the fore. Two continuously-sounding[2] tones will only sound ‘consonant’, i.e. in tune, if their frequencies are in a perfect integer ratio. If they are not, they will sound dissonant to a degree that depends on how far from an integer ratio they are. For example, the tenor drone’s fundamental frequency must be twice that of the baritone in order for the two to be in tune, i.e. they must be in perfect 2:1 ratio.

The tones actually coming out of a drone, chanter, or regulator are not in fact detected by the ear as a simple, single tone - otherwise we would not be able to detect the differences in “tone color” between clarinet, oboe, trumpet and uilleann pipe, let alone Rowsome and Colgan.[3] Fourier proved (in the 18th century IIRC) that any such periodic wave can be broken down into a series of simpler (“sine”) waves in perfect integer ratio with the lowest or ‘fundamental’ frequency, and we nowadays refer to those in music as ‘harmonics’. One aspect of this which is sometimes overlooked or misunderstood is that there is no such thing as “out of tune harmonics” within a continuously sounding tone from a single instrument. That is, the sound wave from any woodwind note must be perfectly in tune with itself internally - e.g. when the chanter is sounding a note, that note is composed of a series of harmonics which are in perfect integer ratios with one another, this is dictated by nature, if you will.[4]

This is also true of drones. That means, that when your drones are sounding, they are in fact playing not only three ‘D’ notes at (say) 294, 147, and
73.5 Hz, but they are also playing many more harmonics as well - for instance the bass drone may be (and probably is) playing

73.5
147 (that is, 73.5 times 2, same as the baritone’s lowest harmonic…)
220.5 (aha, here’s the first ‘A’ harmonic in the mix…)
294 (D again…)
367.5 (F sharp, but considerably flat of the “ET” F#…)
441 (A again)
514.4 (between Cnat and B on the tuner, a “very flat C”)
588 (D again…)
661.5 (E)
730.5 (Fsharp as above)
808.5 (This is approximately a ‘flat Gsharp’ in ET)
882 (A again)
955.5 (between Bflat and B in the ET scale)
etc.

(Not all of the above harmonics are present in detectable intensities for a given bass drone).

This explains a number of things - for instance, why the tone color of a set can be so strongly affected by the bass drone, since its harmonics are located within the range of notes on the chanter (approximately 294 to 1176 Hz).

These harmonics do not all fall particularly close to the frequencies of an equal-tempered scale in D=294 (I chose D=294, or approx, A=441, for convenience).

For each note on the chanter, a similar set of harmonics is present, for instance if the chanter plays A=441, harmonics of 882, 1323, 1764, 2205, etc. are also present. The relative consonance/dissonance (i.e the “in-tune-ness”) of a particular note on the chanter, relative to the drones, is a function of how well the harmonics of the chanter coincide with those of the drones, and vice-versa. As anyone who has ever tuned drones is aware, two tones that are “close but not quite”, where harminic consonance is concerned, can sound worse than two tones that are nowhere near each other. Thus the notes of the ET scale, with their multitudes of near-misses, can sound a lot more dissonant than notes tuned to JI (‘Just Intonation’).

The switch to ET actually changed western music in enormous ways - a consonant JI major third is extremely “sweet” and consonant, but the ET third is dissonant by comparison. Thus Western music’s use of major thirds changed dramatically once ET became the rule of the day - thirds are nowadays considered more dissonant than fifths, but this was not always the case. The consonance of the major third is especially sensitive to mis-tuning - the range over which it sounds really sweet is very small. Since we all grew up listening to ET western music we are used to a major third that’s slightly dissonant, but when the chanter’s F# is perfect against the drones (rather flat of ET) the sound is dramatically different.

For most notes of the D major scale the difference between ET and JI is small, well within the margin of error of most players and ears; notably different are the sevenths (Cs) which in any case are bendy and troublesome enough on most chanters that JI vs. ET is not the primary worry for most of us.

Note, though, that there are certainly harmonics produced by the bass drone that fall within the “accidentals” - similarly, the fifth harmonic of E is G#, the fifth harmonic of F# is A#/Bflat, etc. and so the harmonic series produced by chanter and drones end up covering these tones as well. Thus it makes sense to tune the ‘semitones’ to the JI system also.

In terms of “modernity”, from a world music perspective our current equal temperament system might be looked at as a bit of an aberration. Since drones are common in many types music throughout the world, and since the biology of human hearing is universal, most scales around the world must be based on perfect intervals.[5]

As an aside, all this matter nought if you’re playing with a box, since unless a box is tuned “bone dry”, the differences we are talking about fall within the range between the box’s two or more sets of reeds, whose tuning is intentionally spread apart (for what reason, I have never been able to fathom :wink: but then again some people like double chanters too…).

Bill

p.s. - I believe this has effectively used my internet time for the week. See you another time, I hope this was useful to someone.

================

[1] - there is the caveat that the human ear/brain seems to have a bit of a memory for tones, coupled with “heterodyne effects” which cause certain harmonics to be “manufactured” inside our own ears, if you will… the combination of which means that even in solo melodic music the ear will find certain scales sweeter than others, cultural bias aside. A subtle effect we can ignore for now…

[2] - for tones that are percussive, slightly different rules may apply.

[3] - there’s more to tone color than harmonic spectrum, but it’s a key part of tone color or “timbre”.

[4] - interestingly, this is not true of percussion instruments, whose sounds fall off rapidly with time. Also, while the harmonics within a single note must be in perfect tune. there is such a thing as an instrument whose “admittance peaks” are not in perfect alignment - in fact this is true of all real-world instruments; that is, their resonances or “preferred vibrating frequencies” are not perfectly aligned. Poorly aligned resonances (‘admittance peaks’) mean that the harmonics are imperfectly reinforced by the instrument, or actually interfered with, which results in such symptoms as stuffy or dull tone, slow response to fingering changes, reluctance to play the second octave, bad octave tuning, etc. etc. This is also another reason why an “in tune” instrument often seems easier to play than a poorly tuned one.

[5] - As early as Pythagoras this was beginning to be understood in terms of mathematics. A few places in the world use really strange scales to our ears, but in at least some cases the “weird” scales turn out to correspond rather perfectly to the harmonic series of their (non-wind) instruments - for instance in the case of the gamelan. There’s a really cool book on this (if you like this sort of thing) by William Sethares called Tuing, Timbre, Spectrum. Scale in which he proves that a 10-tone equal tempered scale (that is, a scale based on 10 equally spaced tones in an octave!) sounds quite normal if the percussive sounds are composed of harmonics which are similarly spaced (something not possible with anything other than percussion instruments, by the way).

but they are also playing many more harmonics as well

Yes this can be demonstrated (as I’ve done to music classes to explain JI)with a low whistle, a big set of lungs, an electronic tuner and nice neighbours.

For most notes of the D major scale the difference between ET and JI is small, well within the margin of error of most players and ears; notably different are the sevenths (Cs) which in any case are bendy and troublesome enough on most chanters that JI vs. ET is not the primary worry for most of us.

True, the difference on a D scale is not that noticable, IF you only ever play in D.
Mind you there are some makers who have adopted a JI system for the G scale on chanters too, with no G drone…?!?
i.e. a flatter 3rd and 7th, B and F. Most makers will provide, lets say a G# key. Then you can play, with reasonable ease, Amaj and Emaj scales. But if you play an Emaj scale on a chanter thats tune with JI in D, then your 2nd and 6th notes are out of tune, even though C# shouldn’t be flattened according to the rules of a JI D scale. Cnat yes but not C#. I suppose thats a techincal hitch of having 2 notes coming from 1 hole.

Again,
Why did early makers and tutor books allow for and encourage an almost chromatic scale from a chanter thats not really set up for it.

Note, though, that there are certainly harmonics produced by the bass drone that fall within the “accidentals” - similarly, the fifth harmonic of E is G#, the fifth harmonic of F# is A#/Bflat, etc. and so the harmonic series produced by chanter and drones end up covering these tones as well. > Thus it makes sense to tune the ‘semitones’ to the JI system also> .

Ah… this bit’s interesting…
How would it be then if a maker was to tune every available major scale on a chanter to a JI system.
Ok, within reason, a chanter with 4 keys can play the following keys;
D, E, F, G, A, C,
So if we flattened the 3rds and 7ths of each of these scales, where does that leave us… Not too far off an ET scale… We’d have sharp D’d and G’s. We’d all sound like O’Flynn then… :stuck_out_tongue:

But that would be pointless, theres no E, F, G, A, C, drones…


“heterodyne effects” which cause certain harmonics to be “manufactured” inside our own ears, if you will… the combination of which means that even in solo melodic music the ear will find certain scales sweeter than others, cultural bias aside.

Maybe my ears are have been adjusted over the years. I sometimes find that I’ll open the Fnat key while playing F#, in airs mostly, and it will sound much more ‘in harmony’ with the drones. It’s still slightly flat according to ET, but a little sharper than JI recommends.
Could be just my ears…

I believe this has effectively used my internet time for the week. See you another time, I hope this was useful to someone.

Lord knows so have I, thanks for your very valuable info Bill!

I’m off to make a few whistles before I get the barbeque going!

Chat to you all later.

Tommy.

there is no such thing as “out of tune harmonics” within a continuously sounding tone

Thanks, Bill. Is that an absolute statement? When tuning (not only on pipes) I often feel like there’s multiple notes I’m trying to tune, and if one seems okay, I hear some other overtone which isn’t perfect. Any insight?

And, why was it never changed.

Tom, this is an interesting question. Are we all sure it never varied? Over the years on internet message boards, I’ve seen how “just intonation” became the de-facto answer whenever someone questioned the accuracy of pipes-tuning. I view that answer as a blanket academic validation to cover a multitude of issues, not all of which are related to just intonation.

Regardless, consensus on internet boards is one thing, and reality can be another :slight_smile: Do we really know that “just intonation” was an actual, conscious consensus among pipe-makers and players over the past couple hundred years?

Yes. It’s dictated by fundamental physics as proven by Fourier.

When tuning (not only on pipes) I often feel like there’s multiple notes I’m trying to tune, and if one seems okay, I hear some other overtone which isn’t perfect. Any insight?

In this case, you are sounding more than one tone - you are comparing two tones. While the harmonics in each tone are guaranteed to be in perfect integer ratios with their respective fundamentals, there is no guarantee that the harmonics of two tone sounding together must all align nicely. In actual fact for some intervals they cannot. In such a case, you may find yourself having to choose which sets of harmonics from the two tones you wish to align. Usually things sound best if the two fundamentals are in some small integer ratio, but this can leave some of their respective higher harmonics mismatched. Probably this is what you are hearing.

The mathematically inclined may now be saying “but wait, if the harmonics of Sound #1 are in integer ratios, and the harmonics of Sound #2 are in integer ratios, then if their fundamentals are in integer ratio, all the harmonics must also be in integer ratios!” That’s true, but for some intervals between #1 and #2, some of the resulting integer ratios are not small. Our ears don’t hear “large integer ratios” as consonant, for complex bioacoustic reasons - they can sound dissonant.

And, why was it never changed.

Tom, this is an interesting question. Are we all sure it never varied? Over the years on internet message boards, I’ve seen how “just intonation” became the de-facto answer whenever someone questioned the accuracy of pipes-tuning. I view that answer as a blanket academic validation to cover a multitude of issues, not all of which are related to just intonation.

Regardless, consensus on internet boards is one thing, and reality can be another > :slight_smile: > Do we really know that “just intonation” was an actual, conscious consensus among pipe-makers and players over the past couple hundred years?

Well, it’s unlikely that they called it that, but we can be pretty certain that decent makers have tuned to the drones. Again the fundamental principles of acoustics guarantee that this will result in intervals being tuned to perfect integer ratios. “Just Intonation” is just what acousticians call the resulting tuning system.

Now, all this gets complicated when harmony is introduced - I mean, harmony as opposed to melodic lines against a continuously sounding drone. In such a situation compromises are inevitably desirable. The particular types of compromises one chooses are referred to as the “temperament” used - note that there is no “Just Temperament” since the word “temper” in this context refers to deviation from the “just” intervals of perfect harmony. (Many of you have heard of Bach’s The Well-Tempered Clavier and he was referring here to a clavier that was tempered so as to make it possible to play in many keys without retuning - something indeed necessary in order to play those Bach compositions!) The “Equal Temperament” is actually much more modern and is even to this day not the one favored by many classical musicians, and in any case until the advent of electronic and/or electro-mechanical tuners, ET was rather a difficult temperament to use. Most non-electronic methods of tuning involve “beat counting”, in other words explicitly counting the ‘beats’ between sounding notes in order to put them just the right amount out of tune. It is impossible to tune a chromatic instrument so that all intervals in all keys are consonant, the math just doesn’t work out that way. It is however possible to tune an instrument so that all of the notes’\ fundamentals are consonant with the tonic of the drones. Even in a “just” intonation, however, this is not always the best solution. As Tom points out, some keys’ scales will end up sounding rather strange as a result. Then again, who plays a D chanter in the key of E major? :slight_smile:

In historic times, the solution for playing in different keys was to switch instruments, i.e. to play in F, grab your C chanter. I would suggest that this still makes a lot more sense than trying to tune a chromatic pipe chanter to ET.

OK, I really need to be done now :wink:

Bill