Can anyone identify this old flute? RESTORATION PIX POSTED!

Irish Flute
1

Can anyone identify this flute?

It’s a 58.5 cm long chestnut or walnut, )or what?), four piece flute with brass and steel tuning slide, steel rings (double at both ends of barrel), and a single steel key on the lower foot with a pad that might need replacing after not being used for at least half a century. Steel rings on ends. No end stopper. All six ridged rings seem to be of stainless steel.

The length from mid embouchure to foot is 51.8cms.

The flute is tapered. There is a hump on the barrel, which has a repaired split along its whole length. The head and barrel are thickly and inexpertly lacquered, The lacquer has attracted bits and pieces of unidentifiable flotsam over the years, including blue sprinkles that come off with the application of a thumb nail. There’s another hump at the beginning of the fourth section. The taper seems to start at the beginning of the main section.

The bore at the HJ’s top and bottom end is 2.8cms. It’s 2.2cms at the end of the flute’s foot. The HJ is unlined, except for the tuning tube.

All joints are threaded with Piper’s thread, I’m told. It was inexpertly done and the thread is now loose anyway.

The grain of the wood seems to match in each section at first glance, but closer examination suggests it might come from separate pieces of wood. Where the original grain comes through the lacquer and grime it is very large with big sworls, very attractive. Should gleam up well
with careful cleaning and the right oil.

The embouchure looks like a circle but is .9mms by one cm, though all my measurements need checking for absolute accuracy as I used a kid’s school ruler …

The sound holes are all 8mms by 7mms except number 6, which is 5mm by 5mm.

If I hold the loose joints together by putting the HJ on my shoulder, I can get playable sound, but the low D comes and goes and I get an A there mostly. Before I cleaned the bores of black gunk it didn’t sound at all.

There is no identification on the flute. No name, no numbers.

If someone can tell me how to find the CnF instructions on how to post pictures here, I’ll be happy to do so, in some detail.

In the meantime can anyone confirm the flute’s key, and guess at it’s age, intended market and manufacturer?

I’d like to have it checked over and brought back to as much of it’s glory as possible by an expert. I think a lot of what’s needed is cosmetic, but by someone who knows what he/she is doing… Any ideas about likely costs?

Thanks, and best wishes,

K.

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Guide to Posting Images: https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/guide-to-posting-images/22873/1

In a nutshell, upload your pix to a photo sharing site like http://imageshack.us and post the links here surrounded by [img] tags.

3

It’s in E flat, maybe high pitch…

4

Will need a picture to get anywhere in identification, though I have often found that the years darken the typical french polish or shellac finish on antiques, and a manufacturer’s name can be found by carefully removing same (though that might lessen the “value” of the antique). If I had to hazard a guess from your description I would say it was most likely cocus with German Silver fittings (I haven’t heard of any antique flutes being made with steel or Stainless steel fittings).

5

I have the pictures and tried to follow the Posting instructions MGuru kindly forwarded, but couldn’t find the box with .img in it. So, if someone can let me have their email address and is willing to post the photographs here for me, I’ll be happy to send them the pictures.

Many thanks,

K.

6

http://photoshare.shaw.ca/view/25223623498-1347553007-13653/0

Just found out my Server provides a photo share, so here it is. (Hope this one gets through, I sent it earlier too).

Best wishes,
K.

7

here’s the first one for ya (displays small picture as link to large picture)

in the place that one keys this stuff in there is a “Post a reply” heading; “Subject: Re: Can anyone identify this old flute? PHOTOS NOW POSTED!”; and then a line of things that you can put around selected text from the box…
starts with B for bold, i for italic, u for underline, Quote, Code, List, List=, [*], Img, URL

I’ve imbedded the Img in the url…if this is too fancy maybe just do this

g’luck :smiley:

8

I’m only guessing, but it certainly looks like a rosewood variant (i.e. cocus or the like) with german silver fittings. As far as the manufacturer, again a guess, but it might well be a German copy of a Baroque flute, from the slide and key shape I’d guess more likely early to mid 20th century than early 19th. Hopefully the experts will chime in with better info for you.

9

Thanks for your helpful replies, MTGuru, Latticino, Othannen and Denny.

My conclusion is that I’ll have to get hands on confirmation that the key is in fact E flat/high pitch, as I have no real doubt it is if Othannen says it is, and then make up my mind whether it’s worthwhile for my playing purposes to get it restored. What are the benefits of Eflat/high pitch? Is it appropriate for ITM aires, Folk, theatre/film, and classical music?

Best wishes,

K.

10

OK, so far as can be told simply from appearances in a photo, it is a probably German-made (though not inconceivably French/Belgian given the part-lined head, though the integral lower body/foot militate against it being French) later C19th or early C20th (roughly between 1870-1940, I’d say mid-late in that range rather than earlier) 1-key D flute. The OL and SL are, by comparison with D foot antique continental flutes I have here, fine for it to be a Concert Pitch D flute in all likelihood, though only play-testing can verify that. Certainly an SL c 520mm is a positive sign IMO, notwithstanding Terry’s chart. I very much doubt it will prove to be in CP Eb or HP D. (I have not yet come across such a thing among German or French made simple system flutes!)

If you can get a sound out of it (wrap some plumbers’ PTFE tape on the joints), check the A and G against a tuner - online ones available if you don’t have one. Also measure the C#-Eb length as per Terry’s instructions - that should separate the CP Ds from the CP Ebs/HP Ds! If it is in the 250-260mm range, it should be a CP D flute. Remember that the dimensions for flutes other than 8-key D flutes given on Terry’s list are mostly not based on a large number of samples (I must send him some more…!) nor on non-English (style) flutes.

The metal fittings are without question German Silver and the wood is probably cocus, as others have opined. It has nothing Baroque about it though, being very much a C19th style. I’d say it loosely fell within the “nach Meyer” category. There is no way whatever of guessing, let alone determining a manufacturer.

Um. really? :really: I think those dimensions will be the OD (outside diameters) not the bore (inside diameters!!!)

I would doubt it is worth you spending any significant money on having a pro restorer fix it up for you, which would probably cost more than the flute is likely to be worth even in full, optimum playing condition. It may well be a quite decent and perfectly usable player, though (or not… in which case money wasted). In these situations I have a record of advocating people going into DIY restoration. Especially on a 1-key flute, there is little more to do than clean it and re-lap the tenons and re-pad the one key if necessary. There are plenty of old threads and posts here on C&F on cleaning, crack fixing, lapping and padding, and ongoing advice available. None of these tasks is beyond a reasonably handy person with a little time and patience, nor are the necessary materials hard to come by.

11

Good grief, Jem! How can I ever thank you enough for such a generous, thorough and expert evaluation of my old wooden flute and it’s needs? Priceless. I am literally gob sentait … (This is better in English but less shocking to the susceptible ears of CnF members in French I hope).

You were right about my wrong measurements too - they should have read 1.8cms, 1.8cms and 1.2cms for the top and bottom bore of the head joint, and bottom end of the flute. (I realise how I made the mistake now, but am too embarrassed to tell you).

Unfortunately you played right into my wife Sandra’s hands by suggesting all it needs is a little amateur TLC., ie: us. This is precisely what she said when she saw it, she not even being a player of any sort, though a domestically experienced cleaner, restorer and polisher of nice woods and metals.

Needless to say, I’m also delighted with your opinion the flute is likely to be a normal Concert Pitch D. I’ll check out Terry’s charts too, thanks for the suggestion.

I’m getting some sound out of it and get the impression this is going to be a sweet sounding flute. Certainly a looker …We’ll see.

Thank you again. Very much.

Best,
Keith.

12

Oops, I must have got confused with short/long foot measurements, sorry :blush:

13

It has nothing Baroque about it though, being very much a C19th style

And From Rick Wilsons Historical Flute page on Baroque Flutes:

One-key flutes were still being made circa 1900 and later; see Catalogs. But these should never be called ‘baroque flutes’. Flutes made much after 1750 simply do not have the sound and playing qualities that make a baroque flute what it is.

I guess I was mislead by the relatively small size of toneholes, round embochure shape and single key configuration, which I apparently mistakenly believed were more characteristic of a Baroque or traverso style of flute than a 4, 6, or 8 key 19th century simple system concert flute. Of course the tuning slide and key style did point to the latter manufacture, which is why I guessed a later, possibly German, copy of a baroque style.

If you look at this modern makers (Von Huene) version of a Grenser traverso, you can see where I went wrong:

Oh well, at least I got the wood and key material right… :stuck_out_tongue:

14

From what I recall, for awhile Sears and Roebuck sold one key flutes similar to the one above. They were made well after the baroque period and were flutes that were sold as a low cost option for those that wanted to play the flute. I think tuning and cross fingering were slightly different in these more modern flutes.

15

From what I recall, for awhile Sears and Roebuck sold one key flutes similar to the one above

Nice catch, here is the link to the referenced catalog (again from Rick’s excellent site): http://www.oldflutes.com/catalogs/sears/index.htm

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The following comments are from an internationally renowned flute maker who produces stunningly beautiful wooden flutes:

"Its our impression that this flute is probably not very old. The key is in the German style, and though it is hard to tell from the photos, it looks like a rosewood or some kind of Pakistani or Indian timber. There seems to be a growth of mildew on the surface, so it must have been stored in damp conditions. The bore will also be subject to same, so be careful about breathing in at the embouchure. Have you been able to test it with a Korg, to determine the tuning, and see how accurate it seems?


"Off the bat, without having the flute in hand, we would say not to spend much money on the restoration of the instrument.


"It might be worth your while cleaning it yourself (after taking off the key, and removing the cork with a dowel and the endcap).
Proceed by first wiping it inside and out with 1:1 bleach to remove spores (and with Q-tips round the tone-holes and embouchure) and wipe it dry. When it it thouroughly dry from that operation, get a vacuum or shop-vac sucker running and sand off the varnish down to clean wood, over the sucker, with no rougher than 400 grit to start, 600 would be safer, going to 800 once the varnish is off, (1200 after oiling), being careful not to deepen the finger holes or change the embouchure edges. Otherwiser you could sand with unadulterated raw pure tung oil (Lee Valley) up to 800 grit. Either way you want to avoid getting the dust into your lungs not knowing what the wood or varnish are made of.


"We use tung oil in the surface sanding with wet-and-dry, fine paper doesn’t clog and you use less of it . You can sand the interior of the headjoint, but whatever you do, do not sand the interior of the center joint bore, that will change the taper and could ruin any intentional perturbations, changing the intonation, for what its worth. If the mould has digested some of the interior wood, and you find it soft and “furry” in the bore, than forget it… you can try sanding it, but then you may have to experiment on re-tuning the flute if it. Or take two aspirins and call us in the morning! :slight_smile:


"Once the instrument is clean and sanded, and ready for oiling, drop it into pure Tung for a day, and wet sand it with 1200 once its out of the oil. We do not use almond oil at all, as it has a tendency to go rancid, some peeps are allergic to it, and it can clump and render the bore gooey! …and mould like it too! When you finished your final sanding of the flute after its been in the tung oil, be sure to wipe it completely dry of all oil, in all the nooks and crannies, like the seat of the Eb seat, and the bottoms of the sockets and of course the bore.


"If you are anywhere nearby, come see us at the shop, and we will take a look at it.


“Cheers and good luck”


“PS. If the windings are for pipes, they are windings which do not get wet, and thus the expansion of the thread thickness with condensation and moisture is not a consideration, so it is made out of hemp. If hemp gets wet, it thickens, (that’s why they use it in plumbing) In flutes, with the amount of moisture that finds its way into every crevice, the hemp can expand enough to bust the socket. Use only waxed silk thread, or polyester if you cannot find waxed silk, on the tenon combings, or you may crack open the socket along the grain lines, see photo.”

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Seems like a bit of an aggressive approach.



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Generally good info and advice, but I’d suggest there’s no need for all that fuss with oil, though - or even bleach. I usually clean old flutes with methylated spirits and cotton rags (and a thin dowel) and then just re-oil with bore oil when well cleaned - no soaking, just feather application. Once thoroughly cleaned, it may well not even need sanding off either, unless someone has actually varnished it. Not saying that advice is “wrong”, just worst case/overkill unless proven necessary.

19

Agreed, Jem. The reply from another poster about the tough response also gets my approval. I replied to the advice partly as follows: “The self restoration you propose though easy to an expert like you suggests a ghastly and unwelcome learning curve to someone like me.”

Your aproach seems more practical though still not enticing, Jem, once I’ve determined the flute is playable. Jennifer Cluff the professional Boehm flutist put me in touch with Robert Bigio the all round flutist and archivist who put me in touch with Gerald Brown of Victoria, BC. Gerald is an antique furniture restorer of some renown, a life long musician focused on flute playing. He’s coming to one of the islands round here next week and we plan to meet so he can view the flute. He asked for the details and pix and I sent them off straight away. Once I know what key it’s in at first hand and whether it’s worth making playable again, we can go from there.

Interestingly, Gerald said by the sound of it he would want to cut out the repaired crack in the barrel and scarf in a matching piece of wood with marine epoxy, a flexible adhesive I’m familiar with, designed to repel water, oil and grease.

Thanks again.

Best wishes,

Keith.

20

That Von Huene Grenser is just incredible. It’s surprising how loud it can be for a baroque traverso. The bottom D seems to play just slightly flat without lipping, otherwise its intonation is impeccable. I just wish I could maintain my embouchure consistently for it.

Keithsandra - I read this thread and was amazed at the amount of energy you’ve put into what is a diatonic folk flute of indeterminate pitch. It’s the kind of thing I would do :slight_smile:

Hope it rewards you, although looking at its small 9mm embouchure and diminutive toneholes, it perhaps wouldn’t motivate me too much.

Best of luck with your exploration!