Jem kindly alerted me to an image of a Hawkes Bb flute on the Pamela’s Music site (from which the flute can be purchased). With Pamela’s permission, I’ve added it to my page on later Bb flutes, see:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Later%20Bb%20flutes.htm
It’s interesting to see what the later makers had to do to overcome the problems we encounter trying to play the earlier Bb flutes, as can be seen at:
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/rudall_Bb.htm
Terry
Enlighten please, on Jack Bradshaw’s flute you mention the broken C ´Nat key, but really Ab why?
The Bb flute is pitched four steps down from the D flute. (D - C# - C - B - Bb).
So the Cnat is stepped down to an Ab. (C - B - Bb - A - Ab).
So these High pitched simple system flutes, (known by most on here as “Band Flutes”) & sticking with the Bb bass, which I understood were misnamed and are actually Ab when all holes are covered, where does that take us?
No, low Bb flutes sound Bb with six fingers down. Classical players would call them Ab flutes, because when you use the fingering for C, the actual sounding note is Ab. (That’s what crookedtune is saying–the ‘C key’ on a Bb flute sounds Ab.)
By the way, is there any reason modern makers don’t offer curved headjoints for low flutes? So they look a bit like kitchen plumbing, but they get rid of the uncomfortable shoulder rotation straight headjoints require.
I’ll let this run a while & see if anyone else comments rather than chime in now over the misnaming of these simple system British military flutes (band flutes)
The stretch between fingerholes and embouchure is still reasonable. Thus no need for a curved head joint.
The sounding length (embouchure to end) on my D flutes is around 520mm. On my Bb around 670. That is only 15cm farther. This is well within the range of most peoples’ hands and arms.
Casey
I will agree with Casey on how easily some can play his Bb flutes-I had no problems at all-no neck or arm pain, no problem with the stretch on the holes either. Granted it’s an individual thing, but I was certainly surprised after reading of some people’s problems with larger flutes. I do have long arms, so that might have helped me some, but I have medium sized men’s hands & not long fingers either. Standard hold up top, piper’s on the bottom.
My Boxwood Burns Bb was a dream flute-no keys or curved headjoint necessary to make it any easier or nicer to play or hear. Wish I still had it-had to sell most of my instruments a while ago, but maybe one day I’ll have one again. I found that Low Bb in Boxwood is such a soothing tone for sure.
Besides, most curved headjoints suffer a bit for tone, from what I’ve played and also read of some flutes with them. Of course some people can’t play various flutes without such help, but often it’s not the optimum choice if you don’t need it absolutely. Bass flutes are another story though!
The curved head is really needed when playing/marching in a Corps of Drums (band flute scenario) hence probably its intro in the late 1890’s early 1900’s & without wading through records to see when the 1st Bb Bass flute was made by Rudall Carte that’s an approximation only. As the music part is placed in a wrist lyre when marching it is most uncomfortable to have a straight headed version also. Pulled this out of the WWW below.
Flutes are Wrongly Named
What is generally called the
B flat (Military) Flute is really in…A flat
D (Concert)…C
E , ,…D
F , , …E flat
Evidently these instruments have become so erroneously named because when the six open holes are covered on the each of the different models as listed in the right hand column above the note produced is the note listed in the left hand column above.
No, Neil. It’s already been explained to you. There are two systems of naming at work. One uses the six finger note (the D note) as the name (irish musicians and the “wrong” naming in the left column), one uses the absolute note produced when playing a C fingering (classical musicians and the “right” column - quotations because it’s only correct in context, but it is on the right!).
So these Bb flutes are correctly named… for irish music and for early military band musicians, and probably in other contexts as well.
They are Ab in classical music because the 0xx000 fingering produces an Ab. You just have to establish which musical context you are talking.
Almost right, Nico. The modern classical terminology is actually derived from the transposition necessary based on C - composers & arrangers need to know what interval of transposition to write a part in and they’re C based. The concert flute, including Böhm, is and always has been acoustically in D, but because conventionally it was never treated as a transposing instrument (i.e. the fingering-name/notation symbol/actual note sounded are directly correlated), composers think of it as “in C”.
The trad (including military band) naming of the flat key band flutes represents their actual acoustics, their home “straight off” diatonic scale and their normal lowest note - and if you want to understand their playing properties & propensities is the most useful and most accurate; but it will mislead a composer/arranger. Said music writers won’t think, “Ah, that’s Bb in relation to D, I need to write the part a major third higher”… they’ll think it’s Bb in relation to C and only write the part a tone higher (as for Bb clarinet) - and hey presto, it won’t fit in ensemble. So said folk need to label the Bb instruments as “Ab” (etc. - all a tone lower than their diatonic home key/acoustic centre) to make the correct transposition. But that does not change the constructional or practical playing nature of the instruments!
So, both systems of nomenclature are valid, neither is “wrong”. It all depends on your perspective. If you play them, the “official” modern classical terminology (only prevalent even in classical circles from the last 1/3rd or so of the C19th, BTW) is really misleading, but if you don’t play them and are writing for them, the traditional, true pitch names are almost equally unhelpful.
For me the clincher in arguing for a sensible standardisation is that even as a C-centric classical type, it helps you to write for an instrument idiomatically if you understand well how it behaves and how its players perceive it, and the “correct” transposition name is then rather misleading. As in, the easiest key to play in on a Bb flute is (actual sound) Bb, written in D. It is not particularly easy to play in Ab (actual sound), written in C. OK, classical types work from a given premise that well trained players can perform in any and all key signatures with equal facility, whether or not some are easier or harder than others. But in reality few players of simple system flutes will be happy playing in more than 4 sharps or 3 flats (written key sigs), bearing in mind written C major is already in effect 2 flats (F# and C# flattened from the home scale to F and C).
Nor, of course, do many of these band flutes have extended foot joints - they mostly stop at the 6-finger note/written D fingering. A composer seeing the label “Ab flute” might well assume it was like a Böhm flute and write down to a low Ab (actual pitch, written C) it doesn’t have. IMO far better for these people to study the instruments a little (as they’d expect to for most other things beyond the orchestral norm) and understand their nature. If they then use a mental shorthand of “Bb flute needs Ab transposition”, fine.
Here’s a summary of band flute transposition info for composers/arrangers/copy-writers illustrating how I believe they would do best to think of the matter:
Simple System (and historic) flute nomenclature (and also that of tin/penny whistles) is based on the actual pitch sounded by the 6-finger note (usually the lowest available) and the home diatonic scale proceeding up from that by sequentially removing the fingers from the open tone-holes, the register break occurring between the 7th and the 8ve. The 6-finger note is conventionally written as D (below the treble clef stave), regardless of actual pitch sounded. Although most band flutes have a full chromatic scale available in a tessitura of at least 2.5 8ves from their fundamental (to 3rd 8ve written A or above), in key-signature terms the further away from the key of D the music is written, in general the more awkward it will be to perform. These instruments are sometimes misleadingly named by their C-centric transpositions, a tone lower than their actual home tonality.
D “concert” flute & piccolo - written at pitch, though piccolo written 8vo basso (non-transposing “C” instruments)
Bb band flute (bass or treble) - written up a major third (treble instrument written 8vo basso) (“Ab” transposition)
F band flute & piccolo - written down a minor third (picc 8vo basso) (“Eb” transposition)
Eb/D# band flute & piccolo - written down a semi-tone (picc 8vo basso) (“Db/C#” transposition)
To establish the correct transposition for a flute or whistle labelled in any key other than D, establish the actual pitch of its 6-finger note/home diatonic scale and write that note as D, making your transposition by the interval between that note and D.
Cautionary note: the above is predicated on all instruments being built at/for Concert Pitch A=440. Many (probably the majority, but by no means all) antique instruments and some modern ones made for flute bands are constructed for late C19th English High Pitch, approximately a semitone higher, c A=452-5. Many flute bands still use HP instruments and will not have alternative equipment at CP. This will not normally affect transpositions for music written solely for flute band (carry on as above), but if you are going to mix in band flutes with other instruments at CP, first ascertain what pitch standard the instruments are built for! If you want (inadvisable, really) e.g. to mix HP Bb treble (“melody”) flutes with a CP band or orchestra, you’ll have to allow for an extra semitone (written D, nominally Bb, sounds a CP B! - so transpose up a minor third), think carefully about what key signatures you are asking both parties to play in, and hope the band flutes can tune to an exact semitone sharp of CP nominal.
Isn’t that basically what I said, but I said it from a practical point of view?
The rest of your post is a lot of text, and explains why people follow what I said in my post, but doesn’t contradict what I said.
“By the way, is there any reason modern makers don’t offer curved headjoints for low flutes? So they look a bit like kitchen plumbing, but they get rid of the uncomfortable shoulder rotation straight headjoints require.” Tintin
Played a Wilkes Bb flute some years ago at Tubbercurry. I don’t have large hands but the flute was so easy to play and no problem with the fingerhole spacing or reach. No curved head joint needed
Nearly, but not quite. It isn’t because the nominal C fingering gives an Ab (or whatever).
Naturally.
? 
?
Indeed not. 
Right and wrong it’s always a matter of context… Go to Ireland and ask “Is that a C session?” Unless you stumbled into a “flat” session, invariably people would tell you “No sir, it’s a concert pitch session”, that is, a “D” session, as people accoustomed with irish music call an instrument tuned in “C” (classical way)… If you play irish music, better to follow the “wrong” way in naming things…
Isn’t it though? I mean, you’re arguing semantics here, but practically, classical terminology refers to instruments as being transposing instruments in because of whatever the C note sounds… Ex Trumpet, playing a “C fingering” gives Bb, Alto Boehm flute gives a G, Tenor Sax gives a Bb, Alto Sax an Eb, etc etc
The bit I quoted last post is just another way of saying that, from what I can tell.
I think we’re saying the same things, there are different ways of thinking about it, but ultimately what it comes down to is “If the instrument uses fingering they’ll get absolute note”.
I like your way better, Nico. Less words.
Spoil sports! Words need to be used!
Hey, you guys really CARE about this stuff!
The Bb flute is pitched four steps down from the D flute. (D - C# - C - B - Bb). So the C nat is stepped down to an Ab. (C - B - Bb - A - Ab).
No, low Bb flutes sound Bb with six fingers down…
Classical players would call them Ab flutes, because when you use the fingering for C, the actual sounding note is Ab. (That’s what crookedtune is saying–the ‘C key’ on a Bb flute sounds Ab.)
No, Neil. It’s already been explained to you. There are two systems of naming at work. One uses the six finger note (the D note) as the name (irish musicians and the “wrong” naming in the left column), one uses the absolute note produced when playing a C fingering (classical musicians and the “right” column - quotations because it’s only correct in context, but it is on the right!).
So these Bb flutes are correctly named… for irish music and for early military band musicians, and probably in other contexts as well.
Said music writers won’t think, “Ah, that’s Bb in relation to D, I need to write the part a major third higher”… they’ll think it’s Bb in relation to C and only write the part a tone higher (as for Bb clarinet) - and hey presto, it won’t fit in ensemble. So said folk need to label the Bb instruments as “Ab” (etc. - all a tone lower than their diatonic home key/acoustic centre) to make the correct transposition.
Nor, of course, do many of these band flutes have extended foot joints - they mostly stop at the 6-finger note/written D fingering.
think carefully about what key signatures you are asking both parties to play in, and hope the band flutes can tune to an exact semitone sharp of CP nominal.
The concert flute, including Böhm, is and always has been acoustically in D, but because conventionally it was never treated as a transposing instrument (i.e. the fingering-name/notation symbol/actual note sounded are directly correlated), composers think of it as “in C”.
Right and wrong it’s always a matter of context… Go to Ireland and ask “Is that a C session?” Unless you stumbled into a “flat” session, invariably people would tell you “No sir, it’s a concert pitch session”, that is, a “D” session, as people accoustomed with irish music call an instrument tuned in “C” (classical way)…
Wish I hadn’t asked now. LoL
I like the (8) Irish scenario the best… no sir yes sir whatever you prefer sir. As for writing music for these band flutes (oh dear what a name) that were meant for marching troops accross wide spaces and so on, the writers would write to the key they were composing a new piece specifically for these folk. The mix of Regimental bands and the Corps of Drums was very limited, see (6) usually only to a part in the trio and then there would be so many sharps or flats to played, usually dropped as the use of music on the wrist was frowned on. After 1929 & when Low Piched instruments were introduced in the mid 1960’s it all failed due tio the abilities of the lesser mortals.
The low Bb has me scratching the head & can only assume see (5) your saying there is a foot joint. ALL true band flutes (what a term ) end with the D# key…now there’s another bone of contention as most on here use an Eb key see (9:-))
So does the C nat key on say the F (band) flute sound Ab as well see (1) & also see two TinTin says the all covered is Bb after all & the flutes are not misnamed? In conclussion & to turn this around Classical/Irish and whatever other names you want to use…
Can I see the Regimental bands/classical musicians arranging there scores to play with these simple system flutes and men and include the Bb bugle (without the C shank) in the march/piece as was done in the Drums scenario…I think not.