Hello there,
If one were looking for an antique instrument to play along with flat pitch pipes (assuming the pipes play around “real” c# pitch). What would one be looking for? I remember playing a whole rack of antique germans one time who all sounded nice to me but was warned off them because they wouldn’t get up to modern a 440 (this was years ago when I first started playing). Would these low pitch flutes play around c sharp. I am assuming most modern pipe makers base their C sharps on Ennis’s Coyne but matbe not all which was really an old pitched D I assume as well. So what types of antiques are out there that may suit particularly in the English makers whose flutes may be less desirable to many modern players because of their inability to play as high as a 440 or smaller toneholes? Am I on the right track here in thinking instruments marked LP as well or are these not low enough? I don’t mind discussions about the vagaries of pitch as that always interests me as well.
Hey dunnp,
Classic Baroque flutes are commonly pitched to A = 415, which is C#. I had a Tipple at this pitch also.
Happy hunting!
Not necessarily antiques, but I believe any baroque flute (tuned to A=415Hz) would suit your purpose. Not sure if an antique would be loud enough, but I know that John Gallagher’s would be. Lots of the modern makers make 415 flutes, so I’m sure they could “louden” one up for you if you needed it.
[EDIT] Oops, cross-posted with sillydill - still good info, though!
The later C19th French, German and other Continental flutes (and some American) that are “Low Pitch” compared to A=440 (and remember, 440 was “LP” compared to English HP, so stamps don’t necessarily mean what you expect…!) are mostly in the A=432-5 region, “diapason normal” - see Terry’s pages about historic pitch standards. That is not a semitone flat of 440, so no use for your purpose, though perchance some that are that sort of pitch with tuning slides closed might get down there tolerably with a fair tuning slide extension. Some of the early C19th English flutes are also rather lower, but again, probably not flat enough.
I know a man who owns a C# Coyne flute would you believe it. That would be a good match for Ennis’ pipes.
I have an old German, ivory head in perfect condition, working B foot and all, that is in C#. Pretty decent and I have seen similar (and better than mine I hate to say) on several occasions. Mine came in around €150 so that’s handy enough.
Thank you very much guys. So low pitch is not low enough I half suspected that. What got me thinking of this is that I saw a video of Mikie Smyth playing a Geoff Woof c sharp set and someone attempts to play along with what looks like an Aulos plastic barouqe flute and the tuning is not quite there perhaps but maybe workable. The date for Coyne would have been around 1840-60 I think so perhaps a Coyne c sharp is not at all in modern C sharp but only flat of d as is the case with many “B” sets who are north of B. Maybe I need to ask the C# pipers where their sets actually lie tuning wise. I was thinking maybe a flute comtempary with the Coyne set of pipes would be pitched there abouts but maybe the pipes just fell into their own tuning? thanks for the help. I will go ask the pipers. maybe an aulos might get me near enough are they cheap enough still?
Gumby sorry I missed your post as I was writing mine. I believe you haunt the uilleann forum as well are most c sharp sets in modern C# in your experience I assume their may be wide variation here? So maybe the question is where is the Ennis set and where are the well known copies or copies or copies of other makers (ie Rogge, Woof, Haneman, sorry can’t think of that many makers of C# at the moment) I would love to have that Coyne C# flute. I had heard of rumours of Coyne flutes but have never seen an image or heard that someone actually has one in thier posession. Also what would I be looking for in an antique eight key as C sharp or thereabouts obviously exists I assume the German you mention is unmarked so is it just try to you find? anybody have an English made flute that is in C sharp or can get there?
That Coyne flute really should be in a museum. He was trying to sell it and hoping a museum would snap it up. Anyhow, it’s more the baroque traverso style flute. Plays easily.
The C# I have is a nine key. I suppose I got lucky finding a decent one although I have seen better ones since (but at a price to match).
And now we’re getting vexed by terminology, as usual! I’d strongly advise against talking about “C#” flutes (whatever pipers do) as that name (or the enharmonic equivalent Db) is used in Classical circles to refer to what we’d call (6-finger-note) Eb flutes (at whatever pitch standard) - i.e. instruments a semitone sharp of a Concert one. At least, don’t use the term without qualification - “6-finger-note C#” or “home-diatonic C#” or some such.
In any case, none of these instruments, including flat sets of Uillean pipes is “in C#” save by reference to modern A=440 standard pitch. They are simply D instruments built to a different pitch standard, in this case a lower one. The same thing pertains with Northumbrian Pipes that, if built to the traditional pitch for them, are in approximately a modern 440 F#, but are referred to (and written for) as being in G - they are low pitch G instruments, NOT F# ones as such. Similarly with GHBs which are “in” Concert Bb but are written for and spoken about as though in A - so they are high pitch A instruments!
So, you won’t find any antique English or other concert flute that was built in C# - they were always built “in D” But you might just find one that is flat enough, as I suggested before and MrGumby relates. But they’d be earlier than the equivalent pipes - there was probably some conservatism (as evidenced elsewhere) in pipes design and making that led to them staying at older pitches and not moving with the times. Late C18th and early C19th pitch was in the 420-440 range… not too far off, but there are far fewer flutes of that era extant and the Period Instrument folks want and use the good ones…
Hey dunnp,
Here’s a link to a 415 pitched Aulos for $427 with free shipping: http://www.wwbw.com/Rhythm-Band-Flauto-Traverso-Baroque-Flutes-464489-i1416616.wwbw
Lambeg Fifes are also pitched to C#. Here’s a link to an Ebay seller (about $125 with shipping): http://cgi.ebay.com/C-FIFE-EBONY-LAMBEG-DRUMMING-/370408059546?pt=UK_Woodwind_Instruments
Best of Luck!
Hi Jem and all thanks for the help,
I don’t think anyone here is confused by terminology. I’m sure everyone knows I wasn’t asking about a Db Boehm flute. I think most of us would still refer to our D flutes as D and c flutes as c flutes like we do with whistles regardless of what are orchestral friends tell us. Qualifying terms shouldn’t be necessary on a board focusing on Irish music. In my first post I mention that I am aware the Coyne C# is an older pitch for d. I don’t expect a dedicated C# flute in an antique. Maybe a better question is what can I look for in an old flute (measurements Eb-C# maybe, names, general characteristics) that may get me down to be able to play along with flat pitch ie non concert chanters (I can remember a time when we called “Irish flutes” concert flutes). Since I’m looking to playa long with flat pipers I’ll use their terminology.
Sorry if I caused confusion looks like I’ll have to go spend some time on Terry’s site haven’t been there in a while and ask the pipers where thier sets sit. Perhaps the reason the Aulos baroque flute (I think) I heard playing along with Mikey Smyth seems to be having some trouble (though it did work maybe not just right) is that the A on this chanter is not 415 but slightly higher (look now I’ve gone and confused myself) Most of us in irish music would refer to this as C#. Don’t have a tuner on me a the moment to check. Here is the vid. I’m assuming that is the Woof C# set Mikie generally plays though I don’t even have a flute with me to check at the moment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcwY2yfCNRU
Maybe Jon C. or Terry can help? By the way this is just so I can be on the lookout for such a flute should it pop up though an Aulos is tempting anyway if I can find one used even better.
By the way Jem (ot) if you don’t mind how long did you wait for the Wilkes head? and congrats on it.
Looking at Terry’s site again I see what you mean Jem about flutes lower than 430 being older than mid 1800s and therefore rather more collectable to period players and I’m sure getting collectors rathers than folk players prices. Gumby’s flute however sounds more like a typical later german flute what with the ivory head and low b, were there equivalent English flutes or were they going too high in old England by this point? The Coyne flute in Ireland might suggest there were?
in the pedantic delivery
one finds
there are jems sometimes
Ah, but we’re not in classical circles, now, are we?
I think you’ve got it backwards, Jem, at least as far as what most people mean when they say “C flute”, “D flute”, or C# flute". I for one play a D flute, not a C flute; the home key is D, never mind the extra bits down below. It’s correct that the Dayton Miller Collection et al use C flute for our beloved D flutes, but this doesn’t reflect the more common usage, i.e. D for the home key.
If I go to Pat Olwell and say, “make me a C flute!”, what I will receive is a flute in the key of C, no extra communication or explanation required. Thus it follows that what the OP is talking about is indeed a C# flute, which I believe everyone thoroughly understood until it was undertaken to muddy the waters.
Never mind bloody “nomenclature”; a flute is what its home pitch is.
Rob
But are we like most people? 
Three trivial points:
-Our usual naming system (D flute is concert) works fine. Calling it a D flute in C (sorta like an F trombone that’s in C ie nontransposing) would be accurate but silly.
-Thanks all for not bringing up bansuri or shak nomenclature.
-Calling one that’s a semitone flat a C# flute or an A=415 flute or a Db flute all work for me, though Db flute brings to mind piccolo in Db, which is an altogether different pot of kippers.
Its a rare day for we have the prospect of a hung parliamentl for Australia
and furthermore, I find myself agreeing with Rob Sharer!
I don’t quite understand why Jem is raising this again for we have been through this umpteen times in these forums. That is why, despite the often very useful and informative gems we find in his posts, I feel that once agian Jem is veering to pedanticism. And by pedanticism I mean in the the strict, accurate sense of the word meaning expressing a correct thing OUT of CONTEXT or to a level of precision that is either redundant or not called for.
As for Rob’s agreable entry, his point goes toward whistle nominations also.
As for bansuri, the D key bansuri for example (comparable to the D Irish flute) is predominantly nominated either as D key instrument or a G Sa (tonic) instrument, the latter denoting a tonic position XXX OOO which is preferred for North Indian classical music. This is merely an extension of the point covered by Rob.
For those of you who find this post long and laborious and itself veering to pedanticism, may I refer you to my previous succinct post at page 1 of 17 syllables. I hope it dosn’t put you to sleep.
I take it you guys are trying to wind Jem up or something, gotta love this place. Anyway looking at a few sites that deal in antique flutes again, they seem to refer to pitch of A and sounding lengths so D or C flute for nomenclature doesn’t really come up. though they call non D flutes as , F flutes F, Eb= eb, and Bb= Bb And Jem is right I find far fewer antiques lower than 430-435 ish. Terry recommends the C# to Eb measurement as a perhaps more useful for determining best pitch so any ideas as to what I could look for here? Loved looking at all the baroque flute sites but feel this may not be what I’m after. Though where can I find a used Aulos I imagine people sell them as they move on to other handmade traverso?. Interstingly at a session the other day a flute player picked up my slideless Owell flute and according to the C#D box player was playing in C sharp. Tried again and still in C sharp. He was lovely and in tune on his own Ormiston with the slide all the way in (i think the slide was stuck). I didn’t have trouble playing his flute in tune without having to move the slide. Still haven’t heard from the pipers. I will have to break out a tuner and use it on Ennis, Deegan, amd Smyth and see where their median pitch is. Most likely I’ll end up with a german that plays low with a decent slide extention but still would like to know what else is out there. You could also play along with Ennis recording using pitch software could bring him down to play with my C flute or up to play with my C flute (I mean D, I mean C, I mean) oh done it again . Thanks again, Pat
If you are trying to wind Jem up, it’s a waste of time - he won’t notice.
he will, however, submit 200+ words showing that he missed the windup 