I have both 6 and 8 hole flutes. They are all differant, so I can’t really compare say a PVC six hole Eb and a PVC D eight hole sound-wise.
I realise the 7&8 holes are remnants of stripped keyed flutes, but why are they still making the 7&8 hole on unkeyed flutes instead of just slicing them off at the 7 hole?
Is there really a sound difference? Or is it a matter of preference for the length and balance?
I haven’t seen this posted before, so I thought I’d throw it out and see what I get.
Thanks!
Terri
You’ve pretty much answered your own questions Terri:
The two additional holes can have an effect on playabilty and intonation, and the extra length does affect the balance of the instrument.
Some makers will argue for the pros of the short foot with no holes, some for the advantages of the long foot and extra holes.
From the players side it’s mostly a choice of balance, length, and (dare I say it) appearance. Shorter flutes can be a little more comfortable to play in those crowded sessions, but I’ve yet to play a short foot flute that doesn’t feel topheavy/bottom light in my hands. But that’s just my preference.
From a Maker’s standpoint, we can make short foot or long foot instruments that play well and have good intonation, so it comes down to what the maker prefers, or what he/she expects the customer wants.
Loren
The 2 extra holes can improve the strength of the Low D if I have the choice I always pick 8 holes they just have more advantages. 
The physics of this is a bit complicated in that stopping sound from coming out the end (and that is what cutting off the end results in) makes for a stronger vibration inside; a stronger vibration inside makes more sound coming out from modulating the air across the blow hole. This is explained in “Exploring Music” The Science and Technology of Tones and Tunes by Charles Taylor, IOP Publishing Ltd. ; ISBN 0-7503-0213-5. There is no date. For one of his lab experiments he does the following as explained under the caption on a picture. The picture is of three tubes with clarinet mouth pieces clamped on one end: "Figure 4.16 Three plastic tubes used to demonstrate the influence of the tone holes on the quality of the note produced by a clarinet-like instrument. In (a) the tube has no side holes and the soulnd is rather muffled. In (b) there are five large holes which define an oscillating length roughly the same as that for (a). The note is of approximately the same pitch but is much louder and more ‘clarinet-like’. In (c) there are only three holes and they are much smaller. The tube is very difficult to play when all the holes are open. I two or more are closed a muffled note can be obtained but dies away as soon as all the holes are opened. "
Note that the clarinet does not have the complication of the flute because sound does not come out the mouth-end as it does with a flute, recorder or whistle.
Also, this book and its experiments explain most of the questions about the sound vs design asked on this list. It is worth having. It is not full of equations like most physics books on the subject. He explains everything with clever demonstration experiments. For example, he takes a big bucket of water, upsidedown in it he puts a smaller bucket with woodwinds sticking out the top. Pushing the bucket down in the water hard makes a stronger blowing. His experiments are enjoyable artifacts in their own right.
Nelson
Nelson, you are making me feel the same anxiety that I felt in my college physics classes. Can you narrow it down to a simple conclusion? It wasn’t obvious from reading your comments. In the research that you mention, does it favor the 6-hole or the 8-hole design? And why?
The experiment I quoted above shows that what happens with additional holes beyound those that are covered is in itself complicated. It is complicated by (not explained in the quote) the relative spasing and size of the holes relative to the note. For example, suppose you played an F#. The half wave is about one foot. Suppose you put holes beyond that at 3 inch spacing on one flute and on another you put holes that were 6 inch spacing. The note, and espacially the harmonics, are coupled out differently. Those same hole spacings and size would couple out differently for the A note. Keep in mind that it is only the low D that has no holes below to couple out. For example, the B is always (well usually) strong on all flutes, try it.
As I said, in the flute, you have the complication that the note also couples out as modulation of the air jet over the embouchure. Do this experiment, take the head off and put your hand over the end and blow the low note, a moderate loudness. Now blow the second octave. Very loud. That is because there is only coupling out the embrochure, not the end. And because the speed of the air going over the embochure is about twice as fast, it has more energy and is much louder. Now blow the note with the open end. A week note, so much coupling that it kills the oscillation in the tube. Now blow the second octave with open end. Pissie hissie weak. Even more coupling out to destroy the resonance inside.
So, even though it is too complicated to make a general statement about 6 hole vs 8 hole, it is enlightening to know that the competing design considerations are. Remember, the sax is so complicated, with a complicated taper, and different key size, and a horn end. It was perfected by trial-and-error over centuries. I would guess that all the kings horses and all the kings computers could not analysise the sax.
Nelson
I am struggling with a Giorgi patent ( end blown ) flute by Willis & Co which arrived on Friday.
This has one key operated by the side of the upper index finger, 8 finger holes , ( the two for the little fingers being offset to the left at the top and right at the bottom ) and two thumb holes round the back.
I would like to see a photo of Signor Giorgi’s hands !
The flute strangely enough for something sold around 1885 looks new, and as if made out of shiny black plastic, whereas it is really ebonite.(vulcanised rubber).
People do like to make life difficult !
I am beginning to suspect that it is in pristine condition because nobody could (or knew how to ) play it.
Andrew,
Do you have a photo?
FWIW, the Giorgi flute patent.
http://goss.rho.net/flute/patents/giorgi.pdf
Bill
the simplistic way i understand this is that holes present an impedance to the flow of air depending on their size, height, etc. for a 6 hole flute, the impedance of the low D depends only on the impedance of the end hole (& embouchure). other notes have a different type of impedance because air escapes through both tonehole(s) and the end hole. this difference is thought to make the tone of the low D on a 6 hole flute somewhat different from the tone of the other notes. for an 8 hole flute, the tone of the low D is perhaps closer to that of the other notes because the low D vents air through the C#/C holes as well as the end hole. other details of a particular flute’s construction make the precise effect of this quite different from flute to flute.
fwiw /dan
Adolphe](http://www.saxgourmet.com/adolph-sax.html%22%3EAdolphe) Sax didn’t take centuries to invent the instrument I believe
What I have gleened from your excellent advice is that the D note sounds more like the rest of the scale if the sound has to travel a longer distance and is ported through holes placed along the barrell as the rest of the notes do.
If you slice off the flute at the seventh hole, the D is being ported out differently than the rest of the flute, causing a slightly different, and I imagine, more open sound than other higher up notes ported the length of the barrel.
Have I got it?
I like the appearance of the eight hole, it just seems more proportional and elegant, it seems to balance better too. My six hole is nice for playing in the passenger seat of the car on long trips, don’t have to have the window open to play, (of course you have to have a verrrry tolerant driver, which I do).
My 6 hole seems louder, but it may just be the higher key (Eb) and that it is a different type of PVC,(the one with the dimples), versus my eight hole grey PVC with wedge.
I love both flutes, so you won’t see me retiring either of them 6 or 8, but it’s interesting to know for future flute ordering purposes. (yes, I have FAD, "Flute Aquisition Disorder).
Thanks for all your help, I look forward to more being posted in this matter, it always helps to have experienced flute players take a crack at solving issues that have probably been around since the first flute maker hollowed out a read and blew in it.
Terri
No.
Sounds good in Theory, but in blind listening the vast majority of listeners will never be able to tell which flutes are short and which are long footed. You can hear the difference in your flutes, but you’re comparing apples to oranges, and given the same foot arrangement, they’d still sound different. If flute making were as simple as all the theory, it would be so much easier… and anyone would be able to make fantastic instruments.
Loren
so, is there no tendancy for more variable low E/D tone in short footed flutes Loren? in my quite modest experience i have had that impression, and also that short footed flutes more often need special technique for the low E & D. granted, this is pretty subtle and subjective stuff, especially when compared with the radical variations in air pressure and impedance at the embouchure end of the flute, for better or worse. 
curiously, /dan
Define No tendancy Dan. Sure, maybe on a poorly designed flute, but a well designed flute with a short foot should have no problems. I’ve played (and have heard others play) short foot McGee, Healy, and other flutes with no significant issues. I’ve also played various makers (who’s names I won’t mention) long foot flutes that did have weak bottom end notes. So my answer would be that short foot designs can be essentially as playable and properly intonated as those with long, two hole foot joints.
As I said, there are certainly pros and cons, but at the end of the day, it boils down to the makers skill in design and execution, not the whether the foot joint has a couple of extra holes.
If extra holes below the bell note were such a wonderful thing, how come you don’t see them regularly on other woodwind instruments? I mean if it’s all theory and acoustics, the engineers at Yamaha, Powell, Selmer, etc. ought to be putting them on every tooter with holes, right? 
Loren
to be clear, i agree with this completely. the differences are for me a matter of flavor, not a deficiency in any way. i rather like a slightly different voice at the low end of the flute’s range. but again, there are many other factors that affect low end tonal character, so it’s always a flute by flute (& player by player) quality.
sometimes i grasp at straws.
enjoy! /dan
Okay, I wouldn’t say there is absolutely no difference in sound, however when most people here don’t believe there is a significant difference in tone between woods (Blackwood and Cocus, whatever), which I can certainly hear more often than not, then what I am suggesting is that the same proportion of folks will not hear the difference in foot joints. So perhaps then we essentially have the same view point after all.
Loren
cheers!
Yes, Bildio, I can send a photo when my computer has recovered ! The other day when I tried to put Nikon software onto a USB port the damn thing stopped recognising my broadband modem in the next port !!
If It ever does recover I shall send a shot.
Of course I can’t download photos either.
Grrrrrr
Do makers bother tuning the holes on the foot joint? If I taped those holes shut would I get an “in tune” C# and Cnat?
Cheers,
Aaron
Oftentimes you can tell just by looking at the layout of holes 7 and 8 whether or not the holes are unused tone holes for C# and C or merely untuned exhaust ports. In my 8-hole flutes the later is true. The exhaust ports merely allow for a longer flute body and, I believe, a wee bit louder flute tone, although I haven’t tested this with my digital sound meter yet. By the way, the 8-hole flute plays quite well with the end completely stopped.