Here’s a question for the whistle makers. Is it possible to construct a whistle with an octave change hole?
Why for f-sake would you want that?
I was my impression that an octave hole is the definitive trait that makes a recorder different from a whistle.
{edited for clarity}
[ This Message was edited by: Mark_J on 2001-11-14 10:18 ]
On 2001-11-14 08:24, Peter Laban wrote:
Why for f-sake would you want that?
And people call me harsh…
Sheesh, give the guy a break he’s just asking a polite question.
[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2001-11-14 10:00 ]
Hee hee, Loren…
Peter’s from Ireland…the “f” word doesn’t have the same feel there.
Jessie
I wish you all wouldn’t take these axclamations too serious. Can’t be insertinf smilies all the time to show I I am not serious. Meant ‘Feck’ by the way.
Just wondered why on earth anybody would want to put an octave hole in. As, quite rightly, said above that’s already been done and turned the instrument into a recorder.
I wish you all wouldn’t take these exclamations too serious. Can’t be inserting smilies all the time to show I am not tooserious. Meant ‘Feck’ by the way.
Just wondered why on earth anybody would want to put an octave hole in. As, quite rightly, said above that’s already been done and turned the instrument into a recorder.
[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-11-14 10:41 ]
Thornton,
I bought an old all metal Generation whistle from Ebay. I thought I had a bargain until it arrived…with a hole underneath like a recorder. It was unplayable! I have since soldered a farthing on the back and it plays okay but I don’t think it will ever be quite the same as it should.
Dave.
Sure, I undertand that Jessie.
It’s just that this isn’t an Irish Pub…
Loren
Thornton Rose,
As you can see,the oct hole is a bone of contention around here but I
cant see if it was done correctly that it would have a major tonal effect except to give a truer 2nd oct.I welcome any ideas that may be an improvement for a whistle and a little while back I pondered the idea of an Fnat hole on the back of a Gen D but decided to stick with half holing. Octave hole? Why the f(feck)not!Try it and let us know how it turns out.Good luck,Mike
[ This Message was edited by: mike.r on 2001-11-14 12:29 ]
Not being a recorder player (heck, I can just barley call myself a whistle player), I was wondering how an octave hole works.
On 2001-11-14 10:09, JessieK wrote:
Hee hee, Loren…Peter’s from Ireland…the “f” word doesn’t have the same feel there.
It does if you compare it to your typical American high school. All day long, F— this, f— that, g–d— it! blahblahblah :roll:
On 2001-11-14 16:38, rapp wrote:
Not being a recorder player (heck, I can just barley call myself a whistle player), I was wondering how an octave hole works.
I don’t know exactly how it works, but I do know that for the second octave you half-hole the octave hole, and you do have to overblow in the second octave just like a whistle.
If you slightly vent the upper corner of the topmost tonehole on any whistle, you then have an octave vent.
Is this why most players will ift the top finger when playing second octave D? I’ve found it sounds the note a little louder and clearer to my ear anyway, but it doesn’t work on the other notes in the upper octave without squeaking.
Probably just my meagre abilities manifesting themselves in an audible fashion!
B~
On 2001-11-14 20:02, avanutria wrote:
I don’t know exactly how it works, but I do know that for the second octave you half-hole the octave hole, and you do have to overblow in the second octave just like a whistle.
Well, that answered part of my question, but I still don’t really get it. If you still have to overblow, what does half-holing the octave hole accomplish? Strengthen the tone? Flatten the note being played, in order to correct upper-register intonation?
And, if you make use of the hole by either fully- or half-covering it, why not just reduce its diameter by half so that you can either cover it completely or not at all? Why half-hole it?
Hmm. Mysteries, mysteries.
A Recorder has a conical(decreasing)bore as well as an “octave” hole so just adding a c’ natural thumbhole to a d’Whistle doesn’t make it a Recorder. Abell’s(as well as others)have options for a c’ natural thumbhole.
The second octave on a cylindrical whistle without an “octave” hole plays slightly flat in tone due to peculiarities in acoustics for cylindrical bores. Adding a thumbhole so a player can “pinch” or correct for this flattening effect is an improvement on basic whistle design.
The c’natural tonehole is very near a natural “node” and by “pinching” open a tiny hole with a thumb,a player disrupts the fundamental harmonic mode. This leaves the second mode(octave)the dominant one without the added loudness caused by overblowing in a ducted labium voicing.
An octave hole might be a good addition to a susato whistle. It might make that second octave a little more tolerable.
Depending on the whistles design, it works on the first and sometimes a few others. A true octave vent is located half way between the end of the windblock and the end of whistle.
It causes a pressure drop in the middle of the whistle and this encourages the second octave note to produce. That is why they are slightly louder.
[ This Message was edited by: Daniel_Bingamon on 2001-11-19 22:02 ]
The Generation whistle bought from Ebay may not have an octave hole. I observed some “Irish music” players locally who bored a small hole on the bottom - between the top two holes - which, when covering the top hole and opening this back-hole, gives the flattened seventh - Cnat on a D whistle. The stated reason was to avoid the cross fingering. Sounded normal. Reckoned it was easier to play faster, but I doubt it with practice.
On a recorder, from memory, the top hole is the octave hole, and the back hole gives you a scale note? Flattened 7th? Can’t find a recorder fingering chart…
Cutting other backholes in appropriate places should give other “chromatics” on a diatonic whistle.
Which leads me to a question or two…
- What is a “Flagolet”? I have heard that one type - by this name - has two back holes (with 8 front holes). What are they for and where are they? I seem to rememeber that the original reference I heard was to a french type of whistle.
I know the generic term “flagolet” - I know a fair bit about music 
- Does anybody have a “Tipperary Flute”. I was given one as a child in the 1950’s. It was conical, a fipple, at least one backhole (up the top) I remember, made of black plastic. It was NOT actually a recorder - I seem to remember clearly that the octave hole was in a different position - at the back - which is why I seem to remember that it was diferent from a recorder. I can’t remember exactly how many front holes it had - at least 8. It died in my childhood - along with other things… I have seen one some years ago, but the owner had put it in hot water and it went into a very strange shape …
Robin