similarities with wooden recorder?

Whistle
1

Hello,

i’m a 20 year old student from the Netherlands. When I was young i played a lot of songs on the wooden recorder. I had three different sizes of flutes, tenor, alt and normal (is it called soprane?) flute.
I haven’t played in a long time but recently i decided to dig my stuff up and start playing again! A good decision. But since all you people on this website are so enthousiastic about the metallic flute, the tinwhistle, i’m wondering whether it might sound “better”, or “more professional”..? I know that when i play my recorder i can’t quite picture the sound of that in a modern band. It sounds a bit childish and plain. But that could be just me, and the way i play it… what’s your opinion on that? I hope maybe you can point me to bands that play together with tinwhistles or recorders - I know of Jethro Tull, but i think they use the kind of flute you hold horizontal - i don’t know the name, but i do know i can’t play it!

Anyway whatever you come up with - I’ll buy a cheap tinwhistle one of these days and see for myself. One question though - I’ve seen the grips on a website, they look pretty much the same, but it says 3 octaves exist. On my recorder i only had 2: lower hole closed, and lower hole half open. How does one get to the 3d octave?

Greets,
Tom

2

Hi antiflu. The whistle only has two octaves, like the recorder, and six finger holes. You can add a thumb hole to play an extra note if you want to - say the C# on a D whistle.

If you want to hear good whistle music try the CD ‘Feadog Stain’ by Mary Bergin

3

Hey Tom! My name’s Beth, and I’m in New York State. I’ve recently picked up tinwhistle myself, after playing soprano recorder for over 10 years.

Recorder does sound a bit different and is sometimes considered to be a lesser instrument, but I think it’s just as good. My recorders are plastic, though; I bet wooden would sound better. I have Yamaha recorders: alto, soprano, and sopranino.

I suggest that you look into possible Irish music sessions in your area. I’m pretty sure a few people on this board are in the Netherlands. From my own experience, whistle sounds so much different when you are playing with other people. The higher notes don’t sounds quite so shrill. =)

I hear that Mary Bergin’s CD “Feagoda Stain 2” is better than the first “Feadoga Stain”. I also recommend Joanie Madden’s CDs, “Song of the Irish Whistle” and “Song of the Irish Whistle 2”.

Good luck, and if you want to chat about recorders/whistles, you can email me!

–Beth

4

I have to disagree with Nick, many whistles play well into the third Octave - G at least.

All my Water Weasels and Thin Weasels play up there. So do my Sindts and at least some of my Overtons - I don’t dare try the 3rd octave notes on my high pitched overtons indoors =;^) My O’Riordan C get’s 2 1/2 octaves, as does my Burke brass C (although my old Burke WBB D only has a 2 octave useful range).

Those are only the whistles I just tested. I know many more of the whistles I own play well into the third octave, but my dog is starting to get annoyed with me playing notes that high, so I’ll have to quit now =;^)

Loren



[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2001-10-06 12:39 ]

5

Hello Tom(antiflu)

I agree completely with Loren on this. Tin Whistles have a much greater range than a Recorder because of 2 things,..

1st)A recorder has a decreasing conical bore with a ratio that tunes the first mode(octave)with the second mode but limits the range.

2)A recorder achieves the second overblown mode by “pinching” open the thumbhole and disrupting the first harmonic mode. This leaves the second mode more dominant and this is what we hear.

Whistles do not use this energy robbing “pinch” and the cylindrical bores can reach higher,if flawed,overblown harmonic scales.
An instrument overblows on the harmonic scale,for instance a Mid C whistle:

C4,C5,G5,C6,E6,G6..etc

If you will notice that the 3rd overblown scale begins with G5,you will understand why cross-fingering is needed for this scale. A decreasing conical bore limits the upper mode frequencies but more correctly tunes the first 2 octaves. This is why Recorder type bores are limited to a smaller range.

To Quote Arthur H. Benade,(Acoustician)…

“The first vibrational mode is determined jointly by the shape and cubic volume of the cavity, but the vibrational modes of all the other harmonic frequencies(octaves)are determined by SHAPE ALONE.”

This means that a cylindrical and conical whistle of the same length will sound alike in the first octave mode but will be different in all the higher modes.

My personal opinion is that the Tin whistle is superior to the Recorder but has room for much improvement.

Thomas Hastay.

6

Tom
You should go with Thomas Hastay on this one. Recorders were and are a beautiful instrument. . . ideal for those Renaissance ensembles that were typified by the Recorder and small, private audiences.
With the development of the Orchestra in the 17th-18th cent. it was quickly found that Recorders had absolutely no carrying power to larger audiences . . . hence the rapid development of the transverse flute.
Imagine nowadays your average Irish bar with dozens of Guinness swilling, noisy, completely loveable afficionados of Celtic dance music and you can see the virtues of a cylindrical bored, kick ass metal tube with large fingerholes. . . Go for it Tom !!

Regards . . . Tony P. . . (I’ve just downed 4 beers and half a bottle of Madeira . . . so do excuse me folks).

7

Hi Antiflu,get down to Berkelmusik at 11 Spui,Amsterdam and try out some of the good whistles they have there and tell them Phil Hardy sent you.

Good Luck

Phil.

8

I don’t know if I’d go so far as to put one instrument above the other. It’s like choosing a tool - pick the correct one for the job. On some music, certain classical pieces and other early music, the sound of the recorder seems to work better for the piece. On others, the warmth of a whistle is called for. I guess I think more in terms of what the song is calling for. The advantage is in developing technique on both, since each has its place…

One reason I began playing whistles was for the warmth and expressiveness for certain music. But, my recorders still have their place as well - especially the alto. (although when our former pastor saw my Yamaha bass for the first time, he did ask, “are we playing plumbing tonight?”) :slight_smile:

Cal

9

The recorder is more of a classical
instrument, it is more chromatic,
the fingering is more complex, scientific, and also quite agile. There is music
that is pretty accessible on the recorder
which is very hard to play on the
standard 6 hole whistle. Also the
recorder has a special sound I can’t describe well,
perhaps something like a reedy ocarina,
which is a strength in a way but
a limitation too.
The standard whistle has a much rougher
sound, it’s more of a folk instrument,
and it goes well in pubs, it can play
the blues pretty effectively. The Dixie
Chicks use whistle accompaniment–
imagine the same stuff played on
the recorder! My 2 cents…

10

Hello again whistle-people!
I’m quite impressed by the number of reactions :slight_smile:) It’s a bit late around here so I’m sleepy and will have to read some of the responses again later in more detail… and probably again when I definitely have “The Whistle”. I am going to try one!
Beth: playing with other people is surely fun! As a matter of fact tonight I played for the first time ever (well except for an recorder ensemble led by a music teacher like 5 years ago) together with someone else! This guy is my friend and he plays the harmonica for 2 months now. What we got to play was basically a bunch of happy folk songs, the kind of addictive tunes that are really fun to play but are dangerously irritating to, for example, neighbours :slight_smile: Anyway, I heard the outcome in MP3 and I’m surprised at both the remains of my skill AND the sound of my recorder! So that promises a lot for this supposedly even warmer, gentler, -bluesier- instrument that you all love so much!!

Okay, nighty night (and stay tuned for first whistle frustrations.. to be posted here soon)

Tom

ps. phil: capitalist!! :slight_smile:

11

On 2001-10-06 17:15, jim stone wrote:
The recorder is more of a classical
instrument, it is more chromatic,
the fingering is more complex, scientific, and also quite agile.

What’s chromatic?

I like my recorders, and my whistles, and now flutes. I can’t play them, there are a couple of tunes I play on the whistles, but they don’t come out on the flute. I have to get better at holding flutes.

Wooden whistles would be just fine, it’s just that recorders are a more refined version of the whistle, so your more likely to see them made of a nicer material, to match their formal nature.

You won’t see many whistles in a classical concert hall, nor will you see many recorders at the bar (unless I’m there, but you never know what I’ll drag in next, kids like it when I bring whistles into a restaurant, they have me play both tunes over and over, until their parents make them sit down to eat, so I give them a whistle, and nobody eats, HAHAHA).

Whistles are more for fun, so it doesn’t matter what they’re made of, as long as they sound sort of good (and that’s debatable).

jeff

12

Check out the early recordings of the Scottish super-band Capercaille…thats not a whistle, it is a recorder! Who says recorder is only for “classical music”.

13

Very interesting discussion. I recently started playing around with the tin whistle trying to play some common fiddle tunes. But I soon found that certain notes are very difficult to play in tune, especially G#. So I dug out my old soprano recorder, found a very good on-line fingering chart, and found that not only could I get a good G# but could play a chromatic scale for a full two octaves. For me this gives the recorder a big advantage over the tin whistle. But I would like to hear someone playing traditional fiddle and Irish tunes on the recorder.

14

Also, the recorder fingering chart I mentioned has fingerings for a full three octaves. But I’m only able to get two so far.

15

Interesting that you mention the third octave on that chart. I can manage to get to the “E” on my soprano recorder, then nothing, then the high “F”. I justed tested it and my roommate is complaining already. No wonder, it sounds horrible. But it could be useful to learn the grips for just short outbursts into the third octave, to play songs you normally couldn’t. If you play them short enough the horror isn’t SO great.

This is getting more interesting. Many people, many different opinions. I hear a lot of people saying now that the tinwhistle makes a better instrument for bars, and folk songs. I don’t know why, but I heard a few of these songs on ‘Chips and Clips’ on the Internet, and I think it’s mainly the twiddles and tricks that make the song sound funky. You can do that on a recorder too. But what amazes me from the tinwhistle recordings is that it seems so easy for these players to blend the whole tune in, to make the notes a continuous stream. I’m not quite able to do that on my recorder. But then again, that may be lack of techniques on my account :slight_smile:

Greetings,
Tom

16

Yes, you can do a lot of the same things on recorder as on tin whistle. You need to realize, though, that when tin whistles came into being, the recorder had already become essentially obsolete. Thus a whole tradition developed for the whistle, while the few recorders were sitting in private collections, and basements and such.

The tin whistle is a living tradition, whereas the recorder is a “revived” instrument. Thus its association with “early music” and recreations of old chamber music. However, with the recorder’s use in schools, and amateur societies, it has once again entered the living tradition, and we hear it used more and more in traditional music.

17

Despite their superficial similarities, the recorder and whistle are 2 different animals entirely! I am an enthusiastic fan and player of both.
For traditional Irish type tunes, the whistle is hard to beat. Cheap, easy to transport, and relatively simple to learn. But, don’t try to play Bach’s 4th Brandenburg on it! Some classical music can be played convincingly on a whistle, but much of it has too many accidentals ( sharps ,flats, or naturals not found on the basic scale of the instrument) for the whistle to handle without MAJOR half holing.This is where the chromatic nature of the recorder really shines. Use the right instrument for the type of music you are trying to play. By all means, get a whistle and learn it, but don’t ditch your recorders! Antiflu-- if you think the recorder sounds too simple, get some recordings of your great countryman
Frans Brueggen, or Michala Petri from nearby Denmark and see if that doesn’t change your mind. Astounding virtuoso playing

18

First of all, I will say that I agree with the previous post.

Also, I think that one reason the recorder, a fine classical instrument, is thought of as simplistic or childish sounding, is that people associate them with groups of 30 or so children attempting to play in unison at the spring school concert.

One should always judge an instrument by how it sounds in the hands of good players. The most beautiful of instruments can sound bad when played poorly.

19

As long as they don’t play the “brown noise” note, I’m ok. :slight_smile:

On 2002-05-15 18:07, Walden wrote:
Also, I think that one reason the recorder, a fine classical instrument, is thought of as simplistic or childish sounding, is that people associate them with groups of 30 or so children attempting to play in unison at the spring school concert.

20

On 2001-10-06 22:49, Spot Beagle wrote:

What’s chromatic?

If you had -bothered- to check the dictionary, you would -know- that chromatic means ‘colorful’ … :wink:

What, that didn’t help? Err… okay. A ‘Major’ Scale contains 8 notes, ie, fundemental, first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, and octave (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D’, just for example…)

THE Chromatic scale contains all the notes of western music, that is, all the notes on a piano, so, A, A#, B, C, C#, D, D#, E, F, F#, G, G#, and A’ …theoretically, you can play ‘anything’ with these notes, as long as you’re willing to accept that ‘anything’ is limited to music composed within western music tone/half-tone parameters… fortunately for us, Celtic music is!

Oh, and on my Oak I can get D, high D, and Da above high D. I don’t really dare go much higher in the upper octave, it’s pretty piercing. Maybe outdoors.

–Chris