I’ve been making PVC, CPVC and hybrid copper-PVC whistles for a few months now. However, only yesterday i got hold of a Clarke’s Sweetone conical whistle (that is, REAL tin whistle). I ran it through my tuner, and discovered that it’s tuned almost dead on to every tone, with only two minor spectral components (lesser harmonics that is). Now, i read here that one of the conical whistle’s properties is that they can be perfectly tuned in in both lower and upper octave.
My whistles, however, have that major problem: i cannot reconcile upper and lower octaves.
If a lower note is spot on it’s high counterpart is at least 40 or 50 cents flat. If the upper is OK, then lower is 40-50 cents sharp. I don’t know if there is a way to fix this, and is it fixable at all?
Next thing is that tone spectrum of my whistle is so dirty and plagued with minor frequencies which are much more louder than they should be. As a result i get lousy tones that doesn’t sound really like a proper whistle.
Not to mention random overall crapiness of a whistle that occur form time to time. Altough i work very hard and try to be even more precise and accurate than the last time, i just cannot make whistle to sound decent (even at the base notes, that is D and d). That really pushes my buttons.
So, i anyone has some advice about these problems, i’d like to hear them.
Dain: Who are your favorite Irish whistle players, and how long have you yourself been playing?
I ask only because I wonder by what standards you’re judging the tone and intonation of your own whistles.
In my experience, the Clarke Sweetone is one of the least popular whistles among traditional Irish players, for reasons of tone, tuning, and overall response. Not a criticism, just an observation. And in a previous post you’ve said that you want your whistles to sound Irish. So I wonder if you’ve thought through the implications.
The best playing and sounding whistles I’ve tested personally all have very complex spectral signatures, with a distribution of both even and odd harmonics and inharmonic peaks. Some complexity is desirable, and it’s up to the player to use that complexity to good advantage.
I’ll let others who are more qualified explain the physics of register intonation of cylindrical whistles. But a good cylindrical whistle can be played in tune with proper breath control.
Mod note: I assume “REAL tin whistle” means made of real tin, nothing more. If this turns into another pro/anti Sweetone thread, I’ll lock it down.
Actually, it is possible to have a cilyndrical whistle well in tune in both octaves. It’s a matter of internal diameter/ fingerhole placement/ fingerhole dimensions ratios.
I have to plea on everybody here: i’m just a wretched whistle-maker who makes his own whistles because he cannot buy the proper ones. Even if i try, it goes down the drain (DON’T buy at Hobgoblin) because i wait for over month and a half for them to deliver in USA, and they are American store!!!
Anyways, i have been playing for the last three months, and my favorite player is Paddy Maloney. But i know what is “irish” or lets say “trad” sound when i hear it. My whistles doesn’t sound even close to that. Even when played by my friend that has been playing for a while.
Now, about the harmonics of my whistles. I can see how the spectral composition of a tone determines overall colour of an instrument, and presents it’s unique signature, but if you pack too much of them in there you’ll get mere noise. Not to mention how it dissipates sound energy to unwanted frequencies thus using more air and sounding breathy…
All the proper whistles i’ve heard had much lighter and more opened tone than mine. The quality i’m seeking i recognize in both Sweetone’s and Burke’s so i guess that there is some other contributor to that “trad” sound beside the player’s skill or the price class of the whistle.
Oh, and I mentioned Sweetone (i’m aware that it’s bottom of the pool, price-wise) only because it’s the only REAL tin whistle that i got my hands on. Mind you, not because it’s made of tin or not tin but because it only proper whistle that i could get my hand on.
If you’re making copper whistles or brass, get some telescoping brass tubing that fits tightly inside the bore. Then take about 3 or 4 inches (you have to play with amount based on the whistle) and cut it diagonally. Notch out a place for the window and it this diagonally cut tube inside the headjoint area. It will behave a Boehm Flute taper, a reduction in the bore of the flute near the headjoint.
Cardboard would work also except that it has a nasty habit of soaking up water.
The problem with inconsistencies of tone across the spectrum is because of cut off frequency. As the note frequency rises so must the cutoff. I divided cutoff / frequency and call it “cutoff Ratio” and try to keep the numbers of the ratio close in relationship - that way the tone quality is consistent.
Now, i dont mean to be ungrateful, but some sort of diagram or a wee bit detailed explanation concerning the first paragraph would mean a world to me, because i’m an amateur maker and i’m not that into the jargon. I just had to wiki for Boehm tamper.
Now, i know what cut-off freq is in electronics, but im not shure how does it apply practically on whistles? I presume i have to kill the higher spectral components, but i don’t know how to do it in flesh. Or PVC.
What I don’t understand about this octave tuning thing with whistles is how one can have two whistles of radically different bore sizes in the same key, both of which have in-tune octaves. In my ignorance I would have thought that for each overal pitch there would be one ideal bore diameter, but it doesn’t seem to be so.
For example I used to have a Susato Low A that had the same bore ID as the Susato narrow-bore high D, a quite narrow bore. Then I have a Burke Low A with a huge bore. Both have spot-on octaves.
Someone told me that the distance between the end of the windway and the cutting edge or blade (where the tone is created) has an effect on the tuning of the octaves. Is this true?
The only things I’ve made were open-ended low whistles with a notch like a Kena and their octaves were true.
First let me say that although I understand the principle of cylindrical bore instruments not tuning octaves, I haven’t followed the physics. Daniel’s observation about adding an insert to make an artificial taper is very interesting, and I will be experimenting with that.
OMG yes. With us casual PVC whistlers, you can mess about with the fipple and make a big change in the instrument. Since I normally whistle outside, I find that the weather makes a BIG difference in how a whistle plays, and although there is an optimum distance between windway and blade, on a very damp day with low pressure, I might have to shove the fipple down a little, and on dry days with high pressure, to pull the thing back. My own rule of thumb is that the aperture should be square.
BTW. Hobgoblin isn’t that bad, it took only 3 weeks to ship from UK to Russia. Are you sure the Hobgoblin is an American shop? I thought it is in UK, and I’m pretty sure I had the stamp of Royal Mail on my package. Moreover, date on the stamp was only two days after I placed the order, so they were quick enough.
Just yesterday i made a whistle whose D’s were mismatched without any holes drilled.
I don’t know how i managed it, but i did. I guess there’s not much sense in continuing the work.
I ordered from American shop which is, if i’m not mistaken, in Michigan; it was to be delivered to my friend in New York who would then bring it back to Belgrade. It turned out that they need 8 weeks for stuff from England to be shipped to USA!!! And it is written in some obscure page with very very small letters, instead of bright RED ones beside the whistle: IF IT’S MADE IN ENGLAND YOU’LL HAVE TO WAIT TWO MONTHS!!!.
If somebody can explain me why it takes so long in 21st century for a whistle to be shipped from UK to USA? Are the rowmen on the galleons on strike? Or avian flu took it’s toll on carrier-pigeons?
There are two Hobgoblin shops in Minnesota. One in Minneapolis, and a larger one in Red Wing. I have not ordered from them, but did walk in. The Red Wing store is in a Barn, and a short drive from St Paul, Mn. The Minneapolis store is in a busy part of down town, Or up town depending on your perspective of where a town is in relation to the residents.
Yes you must continue till you make one you like. Each time Thomas Edison made a light bulb that did not work he said, ‘‘Wow, I’m one bulb closer to making it right.’’
A few things that will make whistles play erratic as your describing are wind way to high, wind way taper in the wrong direction, to much bevel on the end of the plug.
For a given tube, no fingerholes; the narrower th bore, the truer the octave. Also the weaker the fundamental note. You can start from there.
The other rule. The larger the fingerhole, the truer the octave. Also the less chance of cross-fingering, if you do that.
All this applies to cilyndrical bore.
Daniel is correct about a “Bohem Taper” at the top of the headjoint. This tapered reduction helps to tune the inter-register keynote frequency. On common metal flutes, the entire headjoint tapers from the slide up to the plug.
Some “simple basics” on bore acoustics: The internal cubic volume and the borelength determine the fundamental keynote scale, but the angle of the taper will determine the frequencies and spacing of the harmonics. (a flute overblows on these harmonic notes.)
Example: A Recorder bore has a tapered bore/length ratio close to 1/6 and will overblow very close to the keynote scale. As the bore opens out into a cylinder, the 1st overblown harmonic will come close to a 12th (like a Clarinet). N.A. Flute makers struggle with this problem and most of these instruments cannot overblow a usable scale. Going farther…a spherical vessel Ocarina will overblow nearly 9 octaves above the fundamental scale. I hope this helps you understand the Bore/Taper relationship. (see “Horns,Strings and Harmony” by Arthur H.Benade)
Suggestions for correcting the overblown keynote scale: A headjoint plug with a deep concave parabolic shape will give a Bohem taper. “Generation Whistles” use a half-parabolic Bohem taper to correct their second octave scale. If you add a “plug ring” to the bore end to reduce the diameter, you will get better backpressure that will result in even more second octave correction for your cylindrical bore. This simulates a tapered foot joint (e.g. Rudall/Pratten)
If you are really ambitious, you can heat the PVC tube (or soak it in Acetone) and slide it over a tapered manderel. Anchor the large end and stretch it. The diameter will be reduced and take on the tapered shape of the manderel. Stretching on a manderel works for metal tubing too.
Undercut toneholes also help in the upper registers to improve weak intonation and reduce harmonic “noise” or discordant timbre.
The problem occurs more in flutes because the of the distance the windsheet travels in open air from the mouth to play the flute, when you go into the second octave the windsheet gets larger in all three dimensions. The air duct of whistles is a mechanical limitation to the windsheet from doing this as bad. Of course the mechanical limitations that the air duct creates also limits the range of whistles to a little over two octave (varies with design).
There are many variations in the geometry of tinwhistles that have more or less affect on this.
Ears on the side and top, distance of the block to the blade, position of the blade in the airstream, chamfering, inner walls, etc. There are many things in the voicing that can influence this.
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