What makes a truly GREAT Irish Traditional Musician?

Trad Irish Music
1

Vintagekits has a thread going next door, on All Ireland Champions, which made me think about what really makes a player GREAT.

Reading the lists of Champions reminded me that many of the finest musicians I have ever had the honour & privilege to play with, here in Ireland, have never ever been anywhere near a Fleadh competition.

As only a musician of only average ability myself, I must be honest too & say that the sessions I like least … are the competitive ones.

Do you really play only to be better than someone else, is that your real motivation? If so, I do not envy you. :frowning:

I often get the impression, when playing in amongst devout CCE players, that they are always competing & image to them is God, whereas the musicians I enjoy playing with the most give me the impression that they are playing simply for the sheer joy of playing music & a love of playing ITM & that they are only striving, very hard it is true, to be better, but only better than themselves!

So the acquiring of technical skill has a part to play, it is true, in making an ITM player great, but I would argue that there is so much more to making an ITM musician truly great.

Just think of the many wonderful musicians you play with, who haven’t actually won any competitions, & consider what makes them so much fun to play with?

What is it about them, apart from their technical skill, which really inspires you?

I’d be very interested to hear what you think makes a truly great musician?

Cheers
Dick

2

Hi, Dick!

I remember when I was just starting out hearing John Skelton say "To me, the point shouldn’t be ‘Aren’t I a great player?’ but ‘Isn’t this a great tune?’

Years and whole lots of struggling later (and a lot more to go!), that seems truer to me than ever before.

I think comparison is something most people can’t avoid at some point (how else do you figure out how you’re doing? Or how to play that roll just like So and So because it’s so cool the way they do it?); and from comparison can come competition. And there are some folks who just thrive on competition, which is fine; they learn some useful things from that, too. And I suppose in some way competition preserves something; at least it keeps people playing, even if it’s just for competitive reasons, but hearing those people might get some others playing too.

I’ve heard some All-Ireland champions I love to listen to; I’ve heard some where it just sounds like a bunch of notes and ornament. But if whoever it is makes me start nodding my head, tapping my feet, and thinking “What a great tune!”, then I’m inclined to think they’re a pretty great player. :slight_smile:

3

Thanks Cathy.

nodding my head"

Ah that brings back memories … in another life, “Status Quo” used to make me nod my head! :blush:

And I suppose in some way competition preserves something

Aye, I suppose it preserves competitions all right, but I’m not convinced ITM ever needed them, in order to survive.

Just think, how many years did ITM manage to survive without competitions?

At best competitions are an amusing & sometimes colourful side-show, but they shouldn’t be confused with the core of ITM.

Surely competitions must never be allowed to become the heart & soul of ITM?

Cheers
Dick

P.S. Did you catch this film Cathy?

[u]Folk Hibernia[/u]

4

I suspect John Skelton was cautioning against technicality without musicality here rather than what identifies a great player. When I listen to a great player I detect great character, something personal to the player, instead of the greatness in the tune per se.

Granted, a great player would be able to showcase/develop a tune to its potential, and sometimes the note-selection in their tune settings make the tunes sound better or more interesting. But ultimately it is still the player, his or her character and style that stands out to me when I hear someone great.

Regarding competition, I think it was Harry Bradley that mentioned on one of the forums that there was a spirit of casual competition and rivalry amongst some musicians back then and this wasn’t a bad thing. I agree with this as I think it would have the effect of spurring musicians on in their art. Institutionalised competitions on the other hand seem to be promoting a spirit of standardisation, and reenforcing a way of playing the music which I find to be rather sterilized.

5

I remember John quoting that to me several years ago. It was in reference to Cathal McConnell. [ I’m about to post those 2 polkas at “the other place” this week, Dick. Expect an upsurge in royalties :slight_smile: . ]

6

Thanks Kenny … suppose I’d better go & learn them again myself, just in case somebody learns them! :boggle:

Royalties eh! I’m afraid I’m not a big fan of the Monarchy! :smiling_imp:

Cheers
Dick

7

I don’t like the word ‘great’ in relation to describing musicians solo or band based. Mary Bergin may be a ‘great’ whistle player to many, but she is not my cup of tea, must I say she is great because others say she is?
Can we have a ‘great’ player without them having a great tune to show their abiltity on?
Can a musicians ‘greatness’ be shown even on tunes that are not that catchy or interesting?
There are a lot of factors that come into the reasoning for picking one person or another as a ‘great’ player. Personal taste being the major factor.
Personally if I hear a tune being played by someone for the first time, I listen for a few things like is the tune catchy, memorable, does the tempo suit the tune, how is the tune being ornamented?
All these things come together for me and I think, WOW that was great tune or, no, that was not a good sounding tune. Was it the musicians playing or the tune choice?
Matt Molloy is as close as anyone could get to being called a great player, because consistently over the years he has shown his greatness and mastery of his instrument. But he still does give me the sh..s sometimes in the choice of some of his tunes, they are tunes I have heard others play and I expect something great from Matt and he goes and plays an ormnament riddled confusion of notes.
Then again, that is just my opinion.
I personally know some great musicians who will never be known in any mainstream way, but they are as good as any ‘famous’ musicians out there. I have a friend who plays mandolin and he is just fantastic, I have almost forgotten to come in on flute or whistle at times because I have been so taken up by his playing!
I think also having personal contact with good players makes them great in our eyes becasue of that contact and being able to chat and discover the person behind their playing.

8

I suspect John Skelton was cautioning against technicality without musicality here rather than what identifies a great player. When I listen to a great player I detect great character, something personal to the player, instead of the greatness in the tune per se.

Granted, a great player would be able to showcase/develop a tune to its potential, and sometimes the note-selection in their tune settings make the tunes sound better or more interesting. But ultimately it is still the player, his or her character and style that stands out to me when I hear someone great.

I couldn’t have put it better Eldarion.

Just as an after thought… It just crossed my mind that I have never before thought of comparing one whistle/flute player against another, (Mary Bergin V Joanie Madden for example) I have always just taken them as they were.
Although…if I had to rank any of them, Brian Finnegan would be waaay down my list!

9

John Skelton told me at Augusta last summer that he’d rather play with someone who knew a handful of tunes well, than someone who knew a lot of tunes half-assed. To me, that says it all. It’s clearly about the music, and those that promote such an attitude are great in my book.
Arbo

10

A great player, to me, is one who plays the music with a combination of skill, love and life, rather than playing the part of ‘a great player’. The music is more important to them than their own ego, and they will talk to a novice without a shred of disdain. They constantly work to make themselves better at what they do.

Luckily for us, there are quite a few. John Skelton, as mentioned above, is one I would count among them.

BTW - he’s teaching the Intermediate and Advanced Whistle classes at St. Louis Tionól this next Spring with Kathleen Conneely.
http://www.tionol.org

11

I’m not sure what “in reference” means here–was John saying that Cathal is a show-off (which he occasionally is) or that he loves the tunes (which he also certainly does)?

Either way, Cathal is a former All-Ireland winner whom I can listen to endlessly.

12

I don’t know how necessary these traits are if you’re wanting to become a “great” musician, but I guess they can’t hurt afterwards if you want to build up your fan club. :smiley:

13

Are you kidding? That’s exactly what you need to become a great musician – to be playing the music for the love of it, to share and honor it, NOT for ego or fame. That’s exactly the attitude that will help every practice session or performance become a way to enter into the music, not try to “use” it.

14

You are, of course, correct. I misread the comment and was responding to something that may not have been intended. I read her comment to mean that “greatness” also meant having a small ego and being nice to newcomers. That may be a silly interpretation of what she wrote (alright, so it IS a silly interpretation), but it’s been a looooong week! :blush:

15

There are many great players – the largest number play in pubs and are not (necessarily) well-known or known outside of their local venue. Some of these players are even better than the famous players, but, hey, some of them are pretty good, too. :wink:

Being a great player has to do with an honest ability to convey tunes at their best – opinions on what the best setting or performance is will be a personal thing. A good player is a good player. Comparing who’s greater is somewhat silly – it’s American Idol for the ITM crowd; chances are, the winner will be the most generically proficient on ornaments and crowd-pleasing flair, while the simple, pure-drop, dyed-in-the-wool master player won’t stand a chance.

16

Now, isn’t that the truth!?! :slight_smile:

This is precisely why I do not like big time competitions. I’m not all that fond of small time ones either. I do, however, enjoy the heck out of a little friendly competition. Watching/listening to a couple of really good players work to challenge and outdo one another in a genuinely friendly way is one of life’s great experiences.

17

I know I come from a more concert band jazz band prospective but a great musician is one who listens. Life and music is about blend and balance, I only ask am I better musician this year than last year. Music should be for joy, love or even for sorrow.

“Inspiration may be a form of super-consciousness, or perhaps of subconsciousness - I wouldn’t know. But I am sure it is the antithesis of self-consciousness.”

aaron Copeland

18

I think the greatest musicians I’ve ever had the honor to meet or play with have a balance of some key attributes – mastery of their instrument, mastery of the tunes they’re playing, a voice of their own they’ve developed over time, a genuine sense of expression and a healthy dose of humility. I find the latter especially important – nothing kills a great musical experience like a bad attitude.

19

I’ll second that Tim-Hart :thumbsup:

20

hi all
lota good stuff here.
In answer to the question,
It’s what YOU FEEL when YOU hear the person.
It’s that simple.
Yours Un.