I don’t claim to be “expert”, but while having that nice, firm piece of evidence for that specific flute is great, it proves nothing with respect to other flutes. OK, the fact we have one proven Wylde-made Fentum shows Wylde did out-work for/sold flutes to Fentums, and it is reasonable to presume it isn’t a one-off. That adds a little weight to an already valid and valuable but subjective opinion that a given unmarked flute could be a Wylde because to Jon’s or my or DM’s or whoever’s eye it looks like Wylde’s wood-turning and layout style. But it doesn’t prove anything - just supports the speculation that it might be a Wylde product. Claiming that block-layout and turning style (or even key stamps from a known associated but possibly shared key-maker) allows firm identification is about as reliable as claiming to recognise a painter from his/her brush strokes or use of colour.
Sure, a seriously well-studied and experienced expert might be able to look at, say, a clutch of stamped R&Rs and say things like “I think this one is a Wylde, but this one’s a Rose and this one doesn;t look like either of them…” etc. - and we might do well to pay attention to their opinion and value it, but we should also recognise it for what it is - an opinion, not a demonstration of fact. So when Jon says, “this unmarked flute looks like a Wylde/Metzler/Pond/whoever to me”, I pay attention - he might well be right. But what he or the flute’s owner can’t legitimately do is say “this is a so-and-so”. Having and expressing the opinion is fine and helpful, so long as it is stated (and reported downstream) in appropriate language. Failure to use suitably careful, precise language detracts from the value of the opinion and potentially embarrasses both opiner and anyone relying on the expressed opinion.
Of course, in the case of Wylde working for Fentum, one could equally validly counter-argue that, as we now have proof he made a flute for Fentum because it bears his stamp, we should be wary of attributing other unstamped flutes to him if they lack a similar stamp…
Interesting, guys. I’ll tell more when I take it out for a spin. The seller just told me it had been rated by Chris Wilkes who compared it with a medium-holed Rudall. I, having never tried a medium-holed Rudall, am not sure what that comparison means really: I’m aware of the disputed large holes = loud/small holes = quiet equations; but would, for example - an ambitious example perhaps - an Olwell Nicholson be like a medium-holed Rudall?
Finally, Jon: you have me freaked out about the crack in the head: the owner said it didn’t leak (but will it?) and he says he had a barrel replaced by Chris Wilkes; presumably if he did that, the crack would have ben repaired if it needed to be; and if it were leaking and ruining the flute, then nobody would have paid to have a new barrel made… Having looked at the photo, do you think that’s a “nasty” crack, or just smothing that could be filled (without having to take out the tube or anything like) without affecting the flute sound?
I don’t intend to seem to speak for Chris Wilkes, but I can report that he often rates medium holed R&Rs as their best flutes - he’s mostly not too keen on the really large holed ones (generalisation - individual flutes of whichever category may be preferable to a particular player) despite those being what many less well informed folk tend to go for. If he said that of it, I’d take that as a good sign!
I find trying to back-compare the originals by reference to modern derived-from-them flutes a little…odd!!! Still, it is perfectly valid to make any comparisons you like, especially as you can only compare with what you know! I haven’t met an Olwell Nicholson, so couldn’t possibly say. How the flute will speak in terms of volume and resonance has far more to do with embouchure cut than either bore or tone-hole proportions.
Re: the head crack - personally I’d want it fixed and I’d strongly advise against filling, but given its position and the compression afforded by the embouchure band, leakage would appear unlikely.
eBay vendors often say lined head cracks don’t/won’t leak, but in fact air-loss along cracks through the embouchure from the walls of the embouchure can affect low note production even if there doesn’t seem to be much of a leak, and certainly isn’t any direct leak through the crack to the bore. Presumably that isn’t happening here, (not an embouchure crack!) though, or as you say, it would have been addressed and fixed.
I agree with Jon’s analysis of the repair issue - one of the reasons I haven’t yet completed the repair and overhaul of my Eastes/Fentum is precisely what he describes - I have not yet managed to get the metal embouchure band off the wood and it is compressing that and making it very very hard to get off the liner. Ugh! That said, I have done several other flutes, both English and German with similar construction which came apart perfectly easily and happily. So you won’t know until it is attempted! We don’t know, of course, what discussions Mr Knight may have had with Chris over the head crack - you could always ask!
Sounds good then! But why would advise against having the crack filled? Having the barrel taken out and everything might be much more expensive. He did mention that the key pads appear to be original and that they might leak, since the lower notes are not as strong as they should be.
By the way Jem, how is the intonation on your Rudall? Shane
Sorry about freaking you, It really isn’t a problem, as the head is lined, you will just have to deal with managing the crack, if it is not stable. It shouldn’t effect the playing of the flute, liner with a lip plate. The only leak might be at the embouchure wall. I think the only way to repair it, is to fill the crack. I would mill the crack and graft new wood in the crack. Unless the crack can be closed, it will continue to move, as the wood is still under pressure from the liner.
Chris Wilkes comments are good, as a medium holed Rudall is a good thing, so be of good cheer!
Jem, you are so fun to tweak!
A new Fentum is coming to the shop, it is a Fentum Goodlad, that should be an interesting combo.
Goodlad used to be partnered with Willis, now the question is who made this flute, was it contracted out to Goodlad, but he was a wealthy businessman…
more to come…
Shane, my R&R’s intonation is pretty much what you’d expect - moderate flat foot, slightly sharp A, C# & F# and low E need key-venting, etc. and, depending on embouchure style and ambient atmosphere, it plays centred in 440 at about 8-15mm slide extension (of the original PH).
Thanks Jon! I didn’t mean to sound so dramatic - nor did you apparently! Good news that, then. Well, it should arrive next week. I’ll keep you posted.
Anyone know for what kind of music - or for what purpose (band/personal pleasure/orchestra) - would someone have bought one of these flutes in their day (19th century)? While I play an Irish jig or a reel, I often wonder what these flutes originally played? Probably not ONLY classical music…?
I meant back in the 1850s. There may well have been Irish music, but it’s unlikely that someone in England who bought an English flute, like a Fentum, would have played Irish trad tunes! However, they may well have played trad tunes like Roslin Castle, played by Nicholson no?
No, David - re-read my previous and note the strategically and correctly placed comma! (Though I admit, read carelessly one might easily so misinterpret…) The F# is flat and needs venting as per usual on mid C19th flutes, which I’m in the habit of doing as I have quite often written here before.
@ Shane - it is worth remembering that in much of both the C18th and C19th the flute in a way had a similar status to the guitar today - it was the everyman instrument. That is one of the reasons for the persistence of old- style simple system flutes long after most professional players had switched to Bohm type instruments. And so the flute owning and playing public would likely have used their old-fashioned flutes in much the same way as the later C20th’s amateur guitar owners - played the popular music of the day. That said, a flute of the class and probable original cost of your new acquisition would not have been an “everyman” flute. The answer to your question probably lies in looking at sheet music published for the flute in the mid C19th.
slightly sharp A, C# & F# and low E need key-venting
uh…no.
the comma is properly placed within the clause it constructs. What’s improper in this sentence is the use of the ampersand (&)…that dictates that the clause is part of what’s before it (dependent) and, with the use of “and” you’ve separated the low E as being the only thing needing venting.
You’ve also misplaced the &.
properly written:
“slightly sharp A, and the C#, F# and low E need (key) venting”
note, too, the removal of the hyphen as it’s not a modifier.
And “key” isn’t really needed since it’s redundant. What else would you vent it with?
so…
yes, Jem… i didn’t need to reread it…i had it right the first time.
either way…nice to know your flute falls within the norm.
Anyone know for what kind of music - or for what purpose (band/personal pleasure/orchestra) - would someone have bought one of these flutes in their day (19th century)? While I play an Irish jig or a reel, I often wonder what these flutes originally played? Probably not ONLY classical music…?
I would second what Jem has said. From my own family’s history, perhaps a little later than the 1850’s referenced, the simple system flutes were a ready source of family entertainment. Of course this was in America, and not England, but my Grandfather learned the flute on simple system instruments and played in Fife & Drum Bands in Maine during the 1870’s and 1880’s. Later, after migrating to the West Coast, as a young married man, he would bring home popular sheet music of the day and along with my Grandmother on piano would play duets, alternately singing and playing along with the children as family entertainment. This was the family tradition until the ‘cathedral’ style radio supplanted it in the 1920’s.
Interesting. Folk tunes then. I often wondered. I’m fascinated by the idea that these flutes have been lying around for 150 years; that’s two lifetimes, and many owners, and so many kinds of music. Lying around… Where???
I wonder too, if anyone buys simple system flutes from modern makers for anything other than Irish, Breton or other Celtic trad music? Presumably nobody buys them for classical music, since the Boehm is much better suited - or so I believe - or perhaps you can use a nice simple system flute for Baroque music, although it might be too loud.
Still, it is perfectly valid to make any comparisons you like, especially as you can only compare with what you know! I haven’t met an Olwell Nicholson, so couldn’t possibly say. How the flute will speak in terms of volume and resonance has far more to do with embouchure cut than either bore or tone-hole proportions.
