Pearson, Potter, Hawkes & Son in February auctions

Heads up, perhaps of interest for some:

There’s an nice 8-key Pearson of London here at Peter Wilsons:
https://www.peterwilson.co.uk/lot?lid=55732&src=list&sal=0&stp=0&mct=0&sct=0&efr=0&eto=0&kys=%2Bflute+&lpp=25&soo=7&rs1=0&rs2=0&rs3=0&of1=0&of2=0&of3=0

Three flutes by Potter (Lot 1269, 1290 & 1295) and 5 piccolos + 7 piccolos (Lot 1292 & 1296) + 2 Rudall Carte 1867 system flutes (Lot 1291 & 1294) - This page takes a little while to open
http://lockdales.auctioneersvault.com/catalogues/132/Auction132.html#100

Lot 298 - 8-key Hawkes & Son here: http://www.cuttlestones.co.uk/salecatalogue/WS120216.htm?s=299&f=313


Sold:
February, 2015 they sold this fine cylindrical Boosey Pratten with (cracked head joint) for £260:
https://www.peterwilson.co.uk/lot/?lid=40998&src=sold&&mct=76&sct=0&pfr=0&pto=0&kys=%2Bflute+&sdf=0&sdt=1451606400&lpp=25&soo=3&rs1=0&of1=0

[quote=“Steampacket”]Heads up, perhaps of interest for some:

“2 Rudall Carte 1867 system flutes (Lot 1291 & 1294)”

1291 is an 1867, but I don’t think that that is the case for 1294. 1294 looks to me to be a Boehm (doesn’t have the distinctive touch pieces for F natural and F sharp of an 1867) with the usual Boehm trill keys but also with an additional two keys where one would expect to find trill keys on an 1867 with trill keys (not all 1867s had them). One will be the usual additional Boehm key for B flat - could the other be for a split E - it seems to close one of the two otherwise linked G keys? I’m no expert, but I don’t ever recall seeing a flute with that particular layout of keys before.

I just made an assumption that both Rudalls were 1867 systems. So I agree with you Returnee

Regarding Lot 1294 Rudall expert Robert Bigio has written: “This is a standard Boehm with nickel silver keys (Rudall Carte’s cheap model). It has an extra lever for R1 to operate the L3 key. This extra key was popular on German flutes but not usually seen on British ones.”

Thank you for the additional information about Lot 1294.

I’m slightly puzzled as to what the benefit of the extra key would be in depressing L3, because I’d assumed that doing so would automatically also depress the linked key next to it, in which case it would not provide the split venting for 3rd octave E. Depressing the linked key would provide the venting.

I did check Rockstro before my original post but he doesn’t mention it - but only realised afterwards that that was probably because he favoured the open G# so that a split E would be unnecessary.

I’ll try to find a fingering chart that shows it (but as a Boehm issue getting rather away from this forum).

I MUST concentrate on my 8 key fingerings and stop thinking about Boehms :smiley:

That Hawkes & son went for £170.00 which seems like a pretty reasonable price. It looks quite similar in appearance to the Boosey & Co. that sold on eBay a few days ago, apart from the slightly wider ferrules and the partial lip plate. Am I right in thinking that Hawkes & Son flutes are slightly less sought after than the Boosey & Co Pratten type flutes? I know Matt Molloy made some amazing music on his Eb Excelsior model, but I believe the Excelsior range was top of the line of the Hawkes & Son range of simple system flutes.

I just looked at the Hawkes & Son photos. Interesting approaches to assembling a flute on the part of the auction house–not exactly what I’d call ergonomic! :wink:

That’s my impression, too. The Pratten and Rudall marks seem to dominate when it comes to (real and perceived) value. And most modern makers reinforce this by offering Pratten and Rudall models, which then gets players viewing new and antique flutes through this dichotomy. In that sense, it’s refreshing to see a modern maker like Copley reference Hawkes & Son as the historical inspiration for his instruments.

tin tin wrote “most modern makers reinforce this by offering Pratten and Rudall models.”
That’s a very good theory, it’s quite likely that the influence of modern flutes has spilled over into how potential buyers view antique instruments. I would be interested to know if anyone here has directly compared Pratten style flutes by Boosey & Co. and those by Hawkes & Son.

As a Copley player and person who just likes flutes, yes, absolutely… they’re not ‘anything’ copies, just Copleys with some acknowledged influences. And it’s so nice to see these things referenced in terms beyond the too-often-assumed ‘Pratten or Rudall?’ choice!

" And it’s so nice to see these things referenced in terms beyond the too-often-assumed ‘Pratten or Rudall?’ choice!" wrote Peter Duggan. Amen to that. Hats off to makers such as Martin Doyle, for example, who make innovative models and try to move the art forward. Much as I like the ubiquitous Rudall & Rose and Pratten based designs, it seems a pity that there are not more makers willing to take the risk, and push the design envelope that bit further. I’m sure we musicians, and broadly speaking our conservative attitudes towards change, are in large part an overriding factor towards how makers perceive the market. They have after all to make a living.
You only have to look at the electric guitar market ( Leo Fender/ Les Paul designs ) to see similar results.

A lot of makers sell flutes that they describe as “Rudall” or “Pratten”, but many are really not very close to the originals. I am in the early stages of making flutes myself, and have studied (and accurately profiled) a lot of antique flutes and flutes from modern makers, in order to gain a better understanding of design parameters and effects. I have noticed that some modern makers’ Pratten flutes are almost identical, acoustically, to other makers’ Rudall flutes. The similarities can be so close that one could imagine they even used the same reamer (or made their reamers based on the same flute). When I say “acoustically”, I am referring to their bore parameters, embouchure cuts, tone hole size etc.

In practice, I think modern makers tend to refine their designs iteratively, trying to approach what they perceive to be the best Irish flute for modern sessions at a=440 hz – which, by the way, is a very different target than the original makers of antique flutes were aiming for. So, its really not very surprising that modern designs tend to converge on a fairly similar point in the design space.

I think it is also worth noting that there really never was a single “Rudall” flute design. There are original “Rudall” flutes that occupy many very different points in the design space, with respect to bore size, profile, tone hole size etc. Large bore, large hole Rudalls are quite close to Boosey Prattens, but older, small bore, small hole, Rudalls can be very different.

Nowadays, when ITM players talk about Rudall vs Pratten flutes, often (but not always) what they are really referring to is simply whether the flute has a single body section or a separate left and right hand section. This is acoustically insignificant (unless back-reaming is employed at the joint - which some original Rudalls have).

Somehow, Rudall and Pratten have become two accepted marketing terms, used to describe Irish flutes, but like all good marketing terms, they don’t really have a lot of meaning anymore (in my opinion). :devil:

And why Copley & Boegli’s site states ‘The design has been adapted to give the characteristics sought after by players Irish Traditional Music.’

I think it is also worth noting that there really never was a single “Rudall” flute design. There are original “Rudall” flutes that occupy many very different points in the design space, with respect to bore size, profile, tone hole size etc. Large bore, large hole Rudalls are quite close to Boosey Prattens, but older, small bore, small hole, Rudalls can be very different.

Yes, of course.

Nowadays, when ITM players talk about Rudall vs Pratten flutes, often (but not always) what they are really referring to is simply whether the flute has a single body section or a separate left and right hand section.

Perhaps, but you’d hope not because that’s just sloppy!

Somehow, Rudall and Pratten have become two accepted marketing terms, used to describe Irish flutes, but like all good marketing terms, they don’t really have a lot of meaning anymore (in my opinion). > :devil:

Totally agreed. They’re pointless (misleading, even) unless the flutes are at least close to being copies, and unfortunately polarising when we’re not actually talking about two poles!

“I’m sure we musicians, and broadly speaking our conservative attitudes towards change, are in large part an overriding factor towards how makers perceive the market. They have after all to make a living. You only have to look at the electric guitar market ( Leo Fender/ Les Paul designs ) to see similar results.” Two Toots.

Yes indeed. As regards the Strat and Les Paul designs which dominate the electric guitar market, the magnificent musician, St. Vincent has designed a guitar that has a quite different look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx0lSfMJ1c

Most if not all modern makers acknowledge Rudall & Pratten designs as their starting point, before making their own modifications to them and despite variations in bore and tone hole size , to my eyes, a lot of them not surprisingly; look, behave, and sound familiar, which if they are all chasing the same goal should not be a major revelation. My point is that, in most cases, as a consequence we are witnessing " Variations On A Theme " and I suppose until players broaden their minds as to what constitutes " The Traditional Irish Flute Sound " it can only continue. The main reason, for good or ill, that I often play antique flutes, is that at least there is some distinct variety between; holding, playing listening to, and not to mention simply looking at an early Monzani, a Clementi Nicholson’s Improved and a Pask. Viva La Difference!

I have a Godin Exit 22, which (while more ‘mainstream’ than that St. Vincent) doesn’t pretend to be either. :slight_smile:

Steampacket wrote -
" Yes indeed. As regards the Strat and Les Paul designs which dominate the electric guitar market, the magnificent musician, St. Vincent has designed a guitar that has a quite different look": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx0lSfMJ1c[/quote]
I wish Annie every success with her new design, and it is not too radical in in the choice of constructional materials, and component parts to be dismissed out of hand. In other words, it has not departed too much from the accepted template to be seriously at risk.
As history shows, popular opinion does not always favour the brave. I remember seeing the Parker Fly for the first time, with its carbon fibre body and Sci -Fi aura, and thinking Wow! This must have been similar to the feeling punters had in the early fifties when confronted with the first Stratocaster. It turned out that they had to ditch nearly every single aspect that made it unique, before the buying public would play along.
I digress, and apologise. This is after all a flute forum, but I don’t think it does any harm to occasionally draw parallels with other instrument manufacture to make a point. I for one would like to see more makers take the risk and base some of their instruments on other prestigious flute makers from history instead of doggedly going down the same route. Surely offering the flute playing public more choice can’t be such a bad thing. Dangerous…Maybe ?

“I for one would like to see more makers take the risk and base some of their instruments on other prestigious flute makers from history instead of doggedly going down the same route. Surely offering the flute playing public more choice can’t be such a bad thing. Dangerous…Maybe ?” Two Toots.

Yes, but perhaps Rudall & Rose’s flutes and Boosey’s Prattens were the best designs at the end of the day. Monzani and Clementi & Co. for example produced some very fine instruments indeed, but I don’t know of any modern makers that are making flutes inspired by them? Has anyone here played a Monzani? As regards guitar design I am old school, I couldn’t imagine myself with a Parker Fly, maybe a Gibson Firebird. The Godwin Exit 22 resembles a Les Paul too much I feel. I still have a Les Paul and a Strat from when I used to rock stashed away though just in case.

Pat Dunn has an original Monzani.

The Godwin Exit 22 resembles a Les Paul too much I feel.

The Godin? Really? Sure, it’s more or less guitar-shaped with one full shoulder and just a vestigial ‘horn’ at the cutout. But neither that shoulder nor the small horn is the same shape as a Les Paul, the pickup arrangements and tone controls are different and the head’s nothing like (single-sided and more Tele-shaped). So, yes, Les Pauls, Strats, Teles and Exit 22s are all guitars, and there are discernible influences in the Godin, but one of the things I liked about it is that it’s a very pretty guitar that’s not just a copy of one of the others.

I do indeed have a Monzani and I like it a lot.
It’s loud and lively but it has been modified in particular a new embouchure
hole was cut by some previous restorer.
It is a older example. I think it plays better below A:440.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ngabbBhPPkM

I believe Dessie Wilkinson has one as well:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qfzv5pm6rVg

Hi Patrick, glad to hear you are still enjoying the benefits that come from playing a really well made instrument. I believe the model I acquired is most likely similar if not the same as your boxwood ( with the flat plated keys ). Mine is an ebony version. ( circa 1812-15 ) It came with two heads and it’s original box, and as far as I can see without any alterations. As you say " loud and lively " and immense fun just about sums these flutes up. It still needs some more restoration to a few broken blocks before it is complete, but it plays fine as it is, and I’ve restored a host of others in the meantime. I think I just can’t bear the thought of having this one out of action as I carry them out! My son Joseph has the same model as the one Dessi is playing in cocus. ( pivoting key cups ). This one is in pristine condition and sounds more precise and refined than mine, and is louder still in spite of the smaller bore. When I clear up a sizeable backlog of work I will return to the Monzani and dedicate my time and attention to completing it without any other distractions. Once finished, as promised, we will send you footage of them being played. Are you using Neoprene for the pads ? I’ve found it very effective for the closed keys, and used leather in the open C. keys.