I’ve been offered a good deal on a Rudall Carte & Co. Radcliff Model #61x. (Berners Street, Oxford Street)
For $650AUD, roughly £300.
The condition is quite acceptable. No visible damage or cracks; all parts present, including case, rod and grease pot. Springs even look good. Possibly silverplate.
The seller is a friend’s acquaintance (in another state 1000km away) who doesn’t play and aside from half dozen photos can’t supply me much information. Apparently it was appraised 10 years ago by a woodwind dealer at $800AUD; could be baloney. Getting a sounding length from them has been a battle. Hopefully it will be forthcoming.
I realise being from the last quarter of the 19th C. puts it in High Pitch territory. (Although a recently sold eBay Radcliff #580 claimed to be Concert Pitch??)
I’m quite keen I love the concept of the Radcliff. I do anticipate a BIG clean-up, repad and maybe much more. But I like the work I can do myself, honestly, which hopefully will be all of it.
So, should I buy it knowing that I can’t play with other folks? I really don’t play flute aside from solo anyway and have two simple systems if I were too.
Is it a great buy or a bad one??? Help please, I have to decide very soon!
I have #595 made in 1916, and it is (originally) modern Concert Pitch. They were making both CP and HP into the 1930s, so it’s a 50/50 toss-up what #610 may be short of having the SL or play-testing it. It probably dates to after WW1, but I can’t check right now. Subjectively from its proportions in the photo I’d say there’s at least a chance it is CP. It looks to be in very good general condition, but photos won’t tell if it needs an overhaul. The price is a snip, especially considering it is the full original assemblage of flute, case, grease pot and swab-rod with screw-driver. The latter on its own is worth about £50 GBP. In full playing condition a HP model is IMO/E worth about £500 GBP and a good CP one at least £2K. Buy it!
Hi Vaughan, Seems to me from the sound of things that it wont take too much convincing before you buy this one. I honestly know little or nothing about this type of flute. Jemtheflute and a few others on this forum will give you insightful advice on this type of flute.
You mention that you are told that you have to move quickly on this one. Normally I am wary of pressured sales, but it appears in this case it would be going through a mutual friend. Is it possible for you to arrange a trial period, so you can assess the instrument up close before full payment is made? You could offer a deposit or something of that nature. Your friend should be able to vouch for you. Hope this helps. Owen.
Are you sure about the serial number? It looks like 510 to me. And that ties in because that flute was exported to Melbourne when new in August 1911. I think 610 however was Ebonite for the UK market.
I have noticed that Carte continued to export High Pitch flutes to Australia through to the 1930s, so I assume the Aussies took longer to convert.
From the photos this Radcliff looks original, i.e. has not been transplanted to a newer Low Pitch body.
How much work will be required is impossible to say without seeing the flute. The keywork has to be tight and the pads need to be working well for the flute to play easily.
£300-500 is about right. But there are a few High Pitch Radcliffs around, whereas finding a good Low Pitch one is much more difficult.
I realise it seemed like a no-brainer from the outset but the HP risk made me second guess myself and seek some assurance.
Time is of the essence as the present owner is offering it to me as a favour to our mutual friend. He is selling off lots of things (no other flutes sadly) via other usual channels and garage sales over the next week before moving house.
A - It looks like #610 to me and the seller, but we could easily be wrong. And it’s certainly not ebonite. Where do you get the information of location/materials? Is there a log somewhere? Looking at that 6 now does look like a 5 possibly… Hmm.
I didn’t realise this flute would date as recently as WWI from the low serial number but I know that each Rudall Carte line had its own serial run.
You have more info than I have access to, AHFR. (Yes, the RC &Co.records for this period are extant - Robert Bigio has them.) I thought it looked like a 6 viewing the photo on my phone, but your records info suggests otherwise. I agree it’s not re-bodied/pitched. Whatever it is, it’s all original. The records usually say what pitch a flute was built for, but not always.
I’m pretty certain this is High Pitch. However that does not affect its quality - when new it was a Rolls Royce. And it still has lots of pleasure to give!
BTW, the Radcliff serials didn’t reach #800 before the last few were put into the main run of “modern” flutes, and as they only got started in the 1870s…
It is indeed tricky. TBH the only tolerably reliable distance method is the sounding length. However, in this case the overall length, either including correctly inserted crown or from outsides of end rings might suffice, or the length of the body joint excluding the tenons. I don’t have those measurements for a CP example to hand, but can obtain them for comparison if you can elicit them from the vendor. Not that I can see why measuring the sounding length should be problematic if well explained.
I don’t have any separate photos of it online and I’m not at home to take one, but you can see my CP #595 quite well in this photo (follow link) to try to eyeball proportions, for what that exercise is worth. I’m certainly unsure/undecided. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152258687694271&l=e43342a4a6
Judging by the way the flute fits in the case, I think there is a good chance of this one being CP not HP. In which case it would be an extremely good deal for that price. Even if it is HP, the price is still good, in my opinion, but the flute would have more limited use.
My Radcliff flute has a sounding length of 580 mm (i.e., it is not CP). But its case would fit a CP flute. So, there is a gap at the end of the body section. I’ve included a picture below. You should be able to see how the body section of your flute fills the case more. I have noticed several other 580mm Rudall Carte flutes in regular cases like this. This seems to imply that Rudall Carte may have used a single standard case size for both HP and CP flutes.
Of course, this is just a hint. If you can get an actual SL measurement you will know for sure, but at that price I don’t think it would be a major risk buying this flute.
Thanks guys, I’m still leaning towards it being HP.
Paddler - I think the 510s case has a wider spacer at the slide tenon end which places it approximately at the same overall length relative to the case as a whole.
Jem - your collection is immense! Thanks for sharing. I would love to see a HP side by side with a CP.
Getting any length - sounding or otherwise - has been like pulling teeth. The seller is apathetic and too busy selling other things and organising a house move put much time and effort into the sale. He really wants to just get rid of it (but not at a lower price of course!)
I’ve attempted to compare dimensions between known HP and CP Radcliffs. I’ve used 3 examples from the Powerhouse collection:
‘Low Pitch’ serial 580
‘Low Pitch’ serial 6536 (late model)
'High Pitch" serial 523
I used the case as the rough baseline of scale and also the keycup proportions.
The ‘starting point’ is the top of the upper joint (excluding the slide tenon whose length seems to fluctuate irrespective of pitch.
Honestly the results are not very conclusive. I think lens and focal length distortion makes any visual correlations null - I can see pretty much the same variance throughout in all 3 examples.
I finally received a TXT with the flute’s length from the seller (it’s been like pulling teeth!!).
Total length (not its sounding length) = 650mm
Not sure whether he put the crown cap in or not (he seems to not quite understand it’s correct placement), or how accurate to the millimetre he was (apathy is ripe it seems) but at this stage I’m banking on HP.
We’ll see, I’ll have it by the end of the week or early next week most likely.
Well, if he measured it with the end cap in place, then it is HP. The overall length of mine, with end cap, is 650 mm. Without the end cap the overall length of mine is 640 mm, for what thats worth.
