Nach Meyer flute from mid-1800s, I’m thinking of buying. $300 would definitely be a good bargain compared to what most people would ask for a flute like this. Anybody know much about this maker, or his flutes? Think they would suit Irish music just fine? I would think it would, although the end of it seems to make me wonder. Hopefully, I’ll be going sometime maybe this week or the next to meet with him and play it and see what I think, but I figured I may as well ask you all here your thoughts on it.
Well that’s a shame… He had said a “professional flutist” came by and tried it and loved it, but, then again, she probably plays classical music, and they’re not looking for a reedy sound. Knowing how stubborn I am, I’ll probably still go meet with him and play it, or attempt to get a sound out of it, just in case it might be worth it. It couldn’t hurt to try, I think.
At least be better than this “Advanced Irish Flute” I saw on there earlier… I always love seeing those things on there, because I always know they’re crap, as, I personally think, there’s no such thing as an “Advanced” instrument. If nothing else, I could at least use it in a picture I’ve been wanting to get of uses for crappy flutes, bodhrans and pipes…
My bubble wasn’t burst and I payed good hard cash for the experience.
I am stubborn too you see.
Go check it out. It won’t hurt and you’ll get a chance to play one.
I’ll go out on a limb here and say that there is 99.9999999% chance that one will NOT be good for ITM. They were barely good for classical/modern music for a number of reasons. Really poor internal tuning being the biggest issue. They just don’t play right. You can’t get around it.
Can you go try it? And do you have a portable tuner (or perfect pitch)? It’s likely wonky in tuning, high or low pitch, etc. (like Aanvil pointed out), but I’ve heard enough very good players playing on old German flutes that I wouldn’t totally count it out.
I second (third?) Aanvil and Jayhawk on this. “Nach Meyer” means “after Meyer” - genuine Meyers were (by all accounts, I haven’t met one yet) pretty good, hance a desire to borrow their reputation. It also means the maker wasn’t (usually) putting their own name on it! Anyway, some (more than is sometimes suggested) of these late C19th/early C20th German made flutes are quite decent and others are awful - the only way to avoid wasting money is to go try it out, and you have that opportunity, so why not. Go armed with a tuner and a tape measure. Look at Terry McGee’s charts on sounding lengths and have a copy to hand - then, even if the flute isn’t sounding properly due to leaks, you can form some idea of whether it is likely to be playable at modern pitch by measuring it (sounding length and C#-Eb length). Quite a lot of these German flutes had bodies built for Low Pitch (c A=430) and they just had shorter heads put on them for High Pitch markets, hence some of the tuning difficulties (flat low end, sharp in upper L hand, especially in 2nd 8ve), though even ones built at A=440 or higher may be badly made and have tuning problems (beyond those inherent in a Simple system keyed flute). Remember if you test it across the scale that you should judge the tuning by the correct Classical vented fingerings where appropriate (e.g. Eb, F# open C#etc.).
Best of luck. If (big if) it is a good one and in overhauled playing condition, I’d say U$300/£150 is a pretty good price for it, but if it needs fixing/overhauling, pay less if you think it may be worth having to fix up, or leave it, as you should do in any case if it is obviously a dud playing wise, regardless of how pretty and well done up it is!
Assuming a ‘professional flutist’ actually did play it, this would be a good testimonial - the real problem with German flutes, nach Meyer or anonymous - is that some have abysmal tuning. Others don’t; if you or someone you trust says it’s in tune, then you’ve solved well over half the problem found with German flutes. As for the reedy sound, all antiques were made for classical music - you can get a good “Irish” sound with a decent embouchure, as the sound comes largely from the player.
In short, I think you should give it a try. My first wooden flute was an anonymous German that isn’t too bad - certainly worth $300 - and for sentimental reasons, and a low-resale probability, I still have it about, and play it occasionally.
Please listen to Aanvil. Save yourself a lot of heartache and some cash. Plenty of good playing modern flutes available at little more than is wanted for this potential firewood.
Well, I got one of these for almost nothing and had it repadded- not because I plan to play with anyone else but so I will have something to practice on while I’m saving for a keyed simple-system flute. As others have said, the sound isn’t as full as one might like but the keys work and it was cheap. I began as a Boehm flute player and learning to use this type of keyed system is like learning another instrument. When I need to play with others, I have other flutes.
The only problem with an out and out rejection or endorsement of such a flute is that these flutes can vary greatly; the risk is getting a German flute that’s particularly bad, or in need of (expensive) repair, making it not worth the money. But a large portion of these flutes are interesting and playable, and it’s a shame to paint such affordable, keyed flutes with such a wide brush.
If such a flute is within the range of acceptable tuning and has a playable embouchure, it can be a really good introduction to conical wooden flutes, at a low price. In spite of its small holes, mine was/is loud enough to play sessions, and - with its slightly funky tuning (although no worse than some English antiques I’ve played) - it taught me how to adjust my embouchure and play in tune. These are the very flutes many ITM “old geezer” players used, when better flutes were hard to come by. It was my first wooden flute and I am quite grateful that I had it - and not some of the “starter flute” toys often touted on this forum for beginners - to start with.
Good post, Gordon. I support that entirely. The problem for an early stages player is having the ability and knowledge to check one out adequately, even if as in this case there is an opportunity to do so, and assuming it is playable enough for such testing to be meaningful or possible at all.
You’ll find many more unplayable old Germans than you will playable.
The market was flooded with wrongly made export grade flutes from many different sources… at least that is how I understand it. Think Germany = Pakistan with some flute making enterprises.
Its not just odd tuning its wrong tuning. No way you’ll be able to lip these in.
Now, course there ARE playable old germans out there but the odds are poor in finding them.
Toys?
Thats rather harsh.
I’ll take a tipple or a dixon 3 piece over them any day.
I’ve always viewed the old German flutes as a kitset. You get well seasoned wood, plus tuning slide, keys etc. If you’re prepared to adjust the tuning you might get a decent keyed flute for not too much money. But they vary a lot as has been mentioned already, and they’re not usually that good without a fair bit of work.
Cheers Graeme
Your apparent unfamiliarity with German flutes makes this argument kind of lop-sided - arguing with opinions that assert facts “at least as I understand it” really lands us nowhere very useful.
German flutes were made infinitely better than your average Pakistani flute of today, and I disagree that the odds of finding a good one is poor. Finding one in playing condition (due to age, not original manufacture) is part of the problem, and, while many were always mediocre flutes (compared, say, to a decent London-made flute), most are better-than-playable. More than a few are even better than that. Lipping them into tune is almost always doable, although how much effort you want to put in is another issue. As Jem said, the best way to determine its worth is by having someone who plays decently try it out, if you (royal you, not you, Aanvil) can’t do it yourself.
All this said - and unlike the kindling coming from the east - German flutes were and are real instruments. I enjoy playing them, looking at them, owning them for their antiquity. I don’t like cylindrical flutes made from PVC, but this is my personal opinion - I don’t want to end up in a flame war over it.
A regional characteristic of German flute playing was the desire to blend the sound of the flute smoothly and evenly into the sound of the orchestral woodwinds; a darker sound rather than brilliant, tending to be rounder rather than reedy.
German flutists (and German orchestras) resisted the adoption of the Boehm-system (metal) flute until well into the twentieth century, and in some early German orchestral recordings you can hear simple-system flutes being played.
However, much like the American market today for Boehm-system flutes, there were a few fine instruments being made for those who could afford them, and there was many more flute-like objects which were widely and inexpensively available and most likely not worth their price even when new.
So of the flutes that have survived as a family heirloom, or have found their way into shops to be sold, the chances of encountering a bad German flute are relatively high.
That said, stumble across a good one and you just might be surprised at what it can do.
Bit like winning the lottery, and perhaps the odds not much different, either.
I’ve been resisting until now, but being no stranger to controversy…
The temptation to romanticize old instruments is understandable. Many of them were great, and the best were the inspirations for the quality instruments that followed. They also look cool.
That said, today’s best makers produce astonishingly good instruments at very reasonable prices. I have, over the last few years, replaced my vintage Martin and Gibson guitars with two remarkable Korean-made “copies”, replaced my vintage Gibson 1920’s A-model mandolin with a 2000 Weber Beartooth from Montana, and have settled in very nicely with a recent Casey Burns Standard flute. (I still play a vintage Vega Tu-Ba-Phone banjo, but that could change).
Not to knock the vintage stuff – it’s great, sometimes. But if snob-appeal is not your thing, and you want to get the best bang for the buck and be done with it, the shortcut is often to patronize today’s more reputable makers. There are a bunch to choose from, and they’re still around to stand behind their products.
I’m sure I read in the original post that we were discussing whether a $300 German flute would be a good buy. If you know of any reputable modern makers making 8 keyed flutes for $300 please let the rest of us know.
The short answer to the question is: It might be great bang for the buck or it might be a dud and not worth wasting time on. People have different opinions as to the chance of it being one or the other. As for snob appeal; German flutes have anti-snob appeal compared to a modern one.
He had said a “professional flutist” came by and tried it and loved it, but, then again, she probably plays classical music, and they’re not looking for a reedy sound. Knowing how stubborn I am, I’ll probably still go meet with him and play it, or attempt to get a sound out of it, just in case it might be worth it. It couldn’t hurt to try, I think.