Tuning Question

Uilleann Pipes
1

Hi,

I’m a total beginner and have had my new practice set a little over a week now :slight_smile: I have a question about tuning. Not that I have a problem with my pipes, I’m just interested. I’ve been reading about people taping up holes and inserting rushes (I assume these are blockages in the pipe?) to get each note in tune. I understand how this works but my question is what do you tune to? The pipes are just intonation not equal temperament (hope that’s right) which ‘modern’ instruments are tuned to. To tune my guitar I can use an electronic tuner (which is equal temperament), but I can’t use an electronic tuner with the pipes because it’s the wrong tuning. So when people are taping up holes etc to get the pipe in tune, what are they tuning to?
Thanks.
Karl.

2

Ears?

Making each note sound a perfect harmony with the drones.

3

I tune the chanter notes to the drones. Some folks tune to A=440. I tune the drones using either an electronic pitch pipe or a tuning fork.

You can use an electronic tuner, but you either have to know the cents different between JI and ET or the tuner might have a Just Intonation setting.

There are some free tuner programs for computers that have the Just Intonation setting. Google is your friend.

At your stage, if the octaves are in tune and the bell and back D are close, don’t worry about it and get to practising. It took 2 years for me to get my chanter in tune (by learning how to make reeds at Elkins, WV Irish week).

4

Thanks for the comments so far. I don’t have drones so can’t tune to those but I can use a tuner for A=440. I know what you mean by using your ears and keeping the notes in harmony with the drones. Some classical musicians play a drone (usually on a CD) and practice with it playing to make sure their intonation is correct. I’m not a classical musician by the way, I have no musical training at all.

5

Along the lines of what Mr. Gumby said, can you HEAR that a note seems particularly out of tune? For instance does the E just sound wrong when you play a one octave scale? Are you familiar with the concept of sharp and flat and can you hear/feel/discern if a note sounds one way or the other, that is, it is just not ‘right’?

One thing that helped me early on (also started with no drones) was finding an cheap electronic keyboard that had a function to sustain a note. Then I could play D (below middle C) and it would sustain that note as a drone and I could play the scale, attempting to hear how the chanter sounded against the drone. And surprisingly, it seem very obvious that some notes were out. Then I could experiment with tape and rushes a bit at the time, starting at the low end of the scale and working up. It was interesting to see that changing one aspect would often affect another for better or worse.

Occasionally you run into someone who cannot discern pitch, and I imagine the uilleann pipes would be rather difficult for that person (there always GHB). But I think that is as rare as someone with perfect pitch, and that hearing intonation is a skill that for most, can be learned and improved.

If you are interested in the theory and mechanics of how pipes are tunes, start investigating “just” intonation. There is a great deal of material available explaining it on the net.

I’ve noticed that the best pipers have well developed ears for intonation, and have worked hard at improving that skill.

6

You can always use a MIDI program to simulate the drones, and there is an IPOD app that will simulate drones and regs.

7

Thanks again for the replies. I’ll have a go at the simulated drone. Yes I can hear when notes are ‘wrong’, and so I should be able to tune this way. I guess it’s like tuning my guitar by ear, one string tuned to the next. I think I do have a problem discerning if something is sharp or flat though. I can tell it’s wrong but not why it’s wrong. I guess this can be learnt as mentioned.

8

hi, yes drones. If you have an iphone you can get tunable app for yr drones. from M Eskin. or get a cd, but its not tunable , here;
http://www.kmbagpipes.com/cds.html

you can also get a keyboard and with a few nails, ‘wedged in’ under the ends of the 2 adjoining keys hold drones down.

Alternatively Peterson do great tuners for JI etc
good luck

9

Hi Karl,

In reality, only a relatively few instruments, like guitars, banjos, and keyboards are tuned ET. Most instruments, and the most common, like the violin family, winds and brass, are played in one form of just intonation or another.

If you buy a cheap Korg tuner, it comes with marks on the display to show you the two most common offsets for just intonation. So, if your drones would be tuned to D, then when you play D on your chanter the needle points straight up. When you play F# the needle points to the little triangle to the left of center. G is a hair flat, E is a hair flatter than that (-2 and -4 cents, respectively). A is a hair sharp, and so forth. You can look up just intonation offsets for all the notes.

When you actually have drones going, you can tune very precisely, and there’s an important reason to do so (because it’s really annoying to be out of tune with yourself), but without drones, there’s nothing to compare to, and very few people have ears good enough to hear a few cents this way or that in the context of a reel.

I don’t play UP, but if I did play them and if I didn’t have drones, I’d probably approach it the same way I do my whistles – as long as it doesn’t sound “bad” then it’s OK.

If you get to the point of playing with someone else, then you need to be more or less in tune with them. How much is a kind of interesting decision though. When we play highland bagpipes, they all need to be exactly in tune with each other, or it sounds terrible. But when I play smallpipes with my friend who plays harp, he tunes ET, and my smallpipe low G is 40 cents flat. I’m not about to carve the hole bigger to be in tune with the harp, so we’re just out of tune on that note.

10

http://www.upreeds.com/

I posted this for you to see, its one of the best sources of reed tuning issues…good luck, its a learning process…cheers.

11

I know I’m going to regret this … :frowning:

… but the thought of a guitar being tuned to ET is just really grating on my mental ear. It would be awful. So it would. Not to say logically impossible. Unless you had a different set of frets for each string … and then … oh God … what about the inharmonicity of the strings themselves, as well as the G problem … and the fourths problem … wibble …

I once had a real-life argument with a guitarist who swore that he tuned his guitar to ET. I said it was impossible. He said nonsense. Etc etc. It ended up with me saying “So what do you do about the bottom E and the G strings?” To which he replied “Well, yes, obviously you have to adjust them a bit. Otherwise it sounds awful.”

In short, I agree that very few instruments are tuned to ET. I’d definitely restrict it a lot more than that list though.

I’m regretting this already … I so hope we can move on …

12

… and I’ve just realised … how bloody sad is it to have a real-life argument about ET with a guitarist? I must go down to John Lewis and see if they have any quality lives available … slightly shop-soiled would do …

:frowning:

13

Good point. I tune my guitar by ear too, based on the key I’m going to be playing in.

Each string though, considered in isolation, is definitely ET – each fret is one ET half step above the next one down. If you constrain yourself to only one string and if you do not bend any notes, then you can only play an ET scale.

“They” say Jimi Hendrix used to bend individual strings within chords to bring them into tune.

Keyboards don’t need to be ET either. That’s a fairly modern thing. My cousin tunes the piano in his church, and it sounds great – they only have hymns in a few closely related keys, so he makes it in tune for them. If you tried to play in 4 flats or 5 sharps it would sound dreadful though. lol.

I tried to convince my friend the harp player that he should tune justly, but he seems to have no interest in the idea even.

14

My reed and chanter currently play an F# that is dead on A440 whith no tape or rushes. It sounds bad with the drones. That’s all it really comes down to. If you have any aspirations for being a piper it’s going to come down to training your ear to play your chanter in tune with your drones.

15

Can you clarify that Ben? surely you mean JI not Equal temp? Guitars are designed , generally, in ET, though there are other possibilities such as the peterson ‘sweeteners’.

16

Assuming the root note of your scale is D, then your F# is wicked sharp. It needs to be 13.7 cents flat (reckoned from ET) to be in tune with your drones.

17

No, honestly, Will, they’re not designed for ET. Well, not according to my taste, at any rate. The biggest problem is the G string (assuming you’re tuning it in standard tuning as opposed to DADGAD). But most guitarists I know tend to tune their guitars more or less as follows: tune the A string. Tune the D and G in perfect fourths above the A string. (Some seem to start with A and D together for some reason that I can’t quite fathom.) Tune the bottom E to a perfect fourth below the A. Tune the top E to a perfect double octave with the bottom E. Tune the B to a perfect fourth below the top E. Then tune the bottom E and the G down a touch. Try a variety of chords and adjust. I’m not saying they think about it too hard, but that’s what they do.

Some others that I have come across tune to a tuner. But it’s really interesting what they do next. They go straight from there to the ‘trying a variety of chords and then adjusting’ phase. Because you do actually have to make compromises. No-one I know tunes strictly in ET because, for most keys, it just doesn’t sound good. How the frets are arranged is another matter.

I’m guessing that each guitarist will have his/her own preferred method of tuning, which may actually be, or they think is, different from either of the above. I know there are some who tune by playing unisons between a fretted note on the string below sounded together with the string they’re trying to tune. But have a look at how often they fiddle about with the tuning in the first two or three songs or tune sets after they’ve done that. I’ve seen some use harmonics on separate strings. Well, we know that that won’t get you ET, or even anywhere close.

I knew I’d regret mentioning it … anyway, what were we talking about? Ah yes: pipes. Much easier. :smiley:

18

I must concur,benhall :smiley:

Bob

19

Back to the uilleann pipes and how they should be tuned, we might keep in mind that tuning is situational, that is, how you tune depends on who or what you’re playing with.

Playing solo, you want the chanter’s notes to blend with the drones. This is pretty much how all bagpipes are tuned. For a very clear example you can listen to any top modern Highland piper, where each note is strictly tuned to Just Intonation and rings with the harmonics produced by the drones. (The interaction between the chanter’s notes and the drones’ harmonics is clearer on Highland pipes because the pipes are so much brighter in timbre than uilleann pipes.)

Just Intonation compares to Equal Temperament like this (notes given are for the low register of the uilleann chanter, plus or minus their ET position)
D 0
E +4
F# -14
G -2
A +2
B -16
C natural -32 (ratio 7:4 in tune with the 7th harmonic) or alternately +18 (ratio 9:5)
C# -12

Tune your chanter like that, and every note of the low register will ring perfectly with the drones.

But… then you’ll be out of tune somewhat if you play with guitars or keyboard instruments.

I have my chanter tuned ET because that’s the sort of situations I usually play in, playing in mixed ensembles for concerts or soundtracks or whatever.

20

I really like that list, Richard. I particularly like the alternate Cnat tunings. To me, that’s part of the perennial problem of Cnat in this music. For Cnat, what does it mean to be “in tune”? (Rhetorical.)