I’ve been sent a transcript of ‘Bean an ir Rua’ and it is in C, going right down to the bottom C, not on my chanter. So how do I traspose it, just move each note up one and play in D? Also the tune in C has accidental notes in Bb. What would these transpose to?
Excuse my ignorance, can’t you tell i’m a bodhran player at heart?
The easiest way for me to figure this stuff out in my head is to sit in front of a piano-type keyboard. You don’t have to be able to play it, just learn the key names. Everything is laid out for you there. C is two half-steps (two piano keys) below D, so Bb moved up two half-steps becomes C (naturally). 
djm
Yeah, just move every note up one, and put F# and C# in the key signature. B becomes a C#, so Bb becomes a C-natural.
just move each note up one and play in D?
Yes.
B becomes a C#
Yes.
so Bb becomes a B-natural.
Not quite: Bb becomes a C natural. In the key of C major, the note B (called the leading tone), is the 7th note of the C scale (C=1, D=2, EFGAB=7). It is a half-step (or “semitone” outside the US) away from C. Flattening the B (ie, Bb) moves it one more half-step away from C. It is now a flattened 7th… a whole step away from the tonic.
When you transpose, you keep the “steps” in proportion. The leading tone in the key of D is C#. C# is a half-step from D; it’s the 7th note of the D scale (D=1, E=2, FGABC=7). When we run across that flattened leading tone (the Bb when playing in C Major), we now need to play a flattened 7th in the key of D. C# is the normal 7th, so lowering C# by a half step gives us C natural… a whole step away from the tonic.
So, in C Major, Bb is a flattened 7th.
In D Major, C natural is the flattened 7th.
They are both a whole step from the respective “tonics.”
The nice thing about piano is that the key signature doesn’t matter. Just count the keys. Black or white doesn’t matter either. C up to D is one black and one white - that’s two keys. Bb up to C is two whites. So you see, the colour of the key doesn’t matter, and leave notational key signatures for the academics.
djm
Ooops, typo. Thanks. (Edited original)
Thanks all. Actually managed to figure it out myself last night. (Shock!)Now shall try and transpose ‘She Moved through the Fair’. The version I’ve been playing on the chanter (beginning with E) does not harmonise well with the drones.
Everybody knows that you just put a capo on the whistle.
This is a Mixolydian piece which has a diminished 7th or Ti.
No matter what keynote (tonic or Doh) you use for it the relationship of the notes will be
(where 0 = the first note)
0:2:2:1:2:2:1:2
So if you have been playing it with E tonic it would be notated in A key signature because E Mixolydian is relative to A major/ F# minor scales
and its notes would be: E F# G# A B C# D E+
To transpose it to another key you simply:
apply the interval relationships I have shown above beginning with the new key note, OR
extrapolate the relativity of mode to key signature I have set out above for the particular keynote you have in mind, OR
do the piano thingie a la djm, OR
do the flute/whistle thingie which is:-
the mixolydian mode begins with a two fingers down tonic and what flute/whistle will give you the keynote you want with two fingers down
and then what will be the note with all fingers down and that will tell you the relative key signature, OR
just bumble along and learn the hard way…
All transposition is based on two concurrent “paradigms”:
1 the order of 12 semitones- A A# B C C# D D# E F F# G G#
(or A Bb B C Db D E F Gb G Ab)
2 the heptatonic scalic mode applicable to the piece you are transposing noting that the main scalic reference is the major scale which progresses
0+2+2+1+2+2+2+1 and all other scalic modes are expressed as amendments to it.
Another way to express it is to number the 12 semitones 1 to 12 beginning with whatever semitone you have in mind for the keynote.
The major scale or Ionian Mode will always have semitone numbers
1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 12
Now the Mixolydian Scale or Mode has a diminished 7th or Ti. So it will always have the semitone numbers
1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 10 and 11.
Try moving the E to an A and everything else the same amount. It puts it way up there in
pitch, but that’s where I play it on whistle and flute. Maybe I should do the reverse and
see how it works on E, seeing as I don’t have drones to worry about. Hmm.
Talasiga’s very technical advice is true, but, on a keyless instrument the practical answer
is usually that there’s only one or two places where the tune will ‘fit’, so you can only
move by a fifth (in only one direction) or an octave.
Beautiful tune, anyway.
–Chris
On a flute anyway, the kicker is the easily fingered C-natural vs. C-sharp. Because of this cosmic duality, tunes in common modes (Ionian, Mix, Dorian) can usually be played in two spots on the flute.
Once you through in more options like an F natural key, transposing becomes a lot easier. Wow! D Dorian! Who’d a thunk it?
My so called “very technical advice” is premised on over 40 years experience and performance on keyless instrumemts. I am attempting to present some RATIONALES to the enquirer rather than just prescribing certain things without explaining the logic behind it (or the fuzzy logic, sometimes).
The plain pragmatic fact is that any Mixolydian piece will most easily be played with a two fingers down tonic (keynote) on any keyless pipe.
From here: XXO OOO
Playing it from here will automatically transpose the piece
and by identifying what note this is XXX XXX on that pipe you will know what key signature you are now operating in and therefore the notes that will be required to notate your transposition.
Well, thats true and I made similar posts at about my 246th post hereabouts quite some time ago. This is neither remarkable, nor original on our parts.
The issue is that the primary Mixolydian tonic will always be at XXO OOO and that will also serve as an index for the staff notation key signature.
The secondary Mixolydian tonic at XXX XXX will require a cross fingered 7th OXX OOO and that is fine for playing but does not help in visualising the mode/key signature relativities for the purposes of transposing (using the flute as transposition diagram).
ummm… i think that should be “minor 7th or Te”. there’s no such thing as…
oh, never mind…
I am sorry “rh” but I often find people thinking their narrow (and correct) usage of a term is exclusively correct whereas their is often a general usage with a broader application which is also correct.
When I say a diminished 7th I am saying the 7th interval in the scale is lessened or diminished or flattened by a semitone. Given that I clearly premised all these comments using the major scale as the referent, a “diminished 7th” means the major scale 7th interval which has been diminished by a semitone.
From a pragmatic, hands on point of view, the Mixolydian Mode, scalewise, is simply the Major Scale amended by lowering the 7th interval by a semitone. So if the enquirer understands this then it is a cinch to transpose any piece from one key to another. This is what all my posts here turn on.
“Minor 7th” as you suggest may be OK but it is often confusing for people who only have a rote comprehension of music theory because the term “minor” is often confused with the black keys of a piano. As you and others know all black keys as a group are only minor with reference to the C major scale.
whatever…
look, as a final suggestion, why not say (as is common in jazz) “flat seventh” and not use nomenclature like “diminished” which is bound to confuse IMHO. otherwise you’re just making up definitions for terms which already exist.
that is, if you really want to communicate meaning.
Actually, in standard terminology, there definitely is a diminished seventh interval, and it is not at all the same thing as the minor seventh. (See, for instance http://www.tonalityguide.com/basicsintervals.php.) Minor seventh is what talasiga means.
yeah, you’re right, enharmonically it is a sixth but can be analyzed as a seventh. i actually thought about that after i posted… i shouldn’t have said “no such thing”.
Keep editing your posts as much as you want until you say what you mean.
My usage of “diminished” has not confused the many musicians I have engaged with in the past week (including beginners, professional jazz and orchestral, South Asian, European and Australian born).
“Flat 7th” is fine also but like “minor 7th” it can be confusing for some. Some beginners who do not have a fundamental understaning often think that a “flattened interval” must have a “b” after it. Like, if the 7th is a C and you flattened it, they get confused wondering why it is not expressed as Cb instead of B. And so it goes. You and others know quite well that the term “flat 7th” is a relative term and is not specifically a descriptor of an unqualified semitone as in Ab, Bb, Db, Eb and Gb.
In Indian music, amongst trained musicians, I would simply say “komal Ni” which literally means “flattened Ti”. But here I am in Western context and an ITM one at that. A lot of Westerners work on the Doh being set at C and therefore a “flat Ti” may also be misunderstood as Bb and only Bb. Then I would need to say, “flat Ti in tonic Sol-fa system”. In fact, if I were to fully explain everything in a way so as to avoid the possibility of any misunderstanding whatsoever I would need to write an essay in every post. And so would you.
But I like to attempt some balance with a reasonably self contained post which is helpful and which has the essential elements expressed or implied for future development if interest is there. If I say something you cannot understand, please feel free to ask me to clarify my meaning. Your nit picking that my usage of “diminished” does not conform to a jargonised usage of it in certain circles does not shake its correctness as a general term commonly understood by specialists and lay alike.
This sort of jargonised usage is extant and useful for some people but serve little pragmatic value in assisting folk and oral based musicians transposing melodic music.
Putting aside the Ustaads at Ulmeera, the Pandits of Poona, the Gurus by the Ganga who maintain that there are 21 microtones in any octave, and putting aside the Professors of Peabody who correctly argue that the possibility of microtones in any octave is infinite, for all practical purposes there are 12 semitones in any octave and these are the semitones we are working on to convey basic pragmatic points about melodic modes and transposition of same.
Let us go to DJM’s piano for a minute. Like all other keyboards, and despite the infinite number of micro tones possible, it is comprised of repitition of just 12 semitones:
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B …
Now here, I have presented the 12 semitones with the major notes of the C scale in bold. Now these sites, using their jargon, refer to a diminished 7th as the minor 7th lowered by a semitone which would make their diminished 7th a major 6th! 
I really don’t wish to spend much of my life cogitating the difference between the note A which is a major 6th and the note A which is PURPORTEDLY a “flattened minor 7th” - not for the practical purposes of playing music.
None of this helps the ordinary person transpose music with some ease on the basis of a fundamental understanding.
The fact that the word “diminished” has been hijacked by the jargonised usage of it does not diminish its meaning in the genral sense. Let us look at this again
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B …
So these bold notes comprise C major (Ionian Mode).
See that B - it is the 7th note. How do we get Mixolydian? We lower the B. We lessen it. We flatten it. If you get something and make it less, you DIMINISH it.
Now, how much can we lower this B, this 7th in the C major scale? We can ONLY lower it by a semitone to Bb BECAUSE if we diminish it any more it will be the major 6th, the A. See? For all intents and PRACTICAL PURPOSES the usage of the term “diminished 7th” to indicate the major 6th, the A is tortuously tautologous. The note A is the 6th and the note B is the 7th. If you diminish the 7th by a semitone you will get Bb. If you wish to diminish the 7th by a BIT MORE THAN A SEMITONE WITHOUT IT BECOMING THE 6th go and spend 20 years by the Ganga with a Bansuri Guru or go live in the depths of Turkey somewhere. Or perhaps the deserts of academia.
I challenge anybody to go to djm’s piano or come to my harmonium, identify a 7th in any major scale and diminish it by more than a semitone without it becoming or going past the major 6th.
Be it known that when I speak of a diminished interval I am talking of a major interval dimished by a semitone (which is the only PRACTICABLE degree that we can diminish such an interval) and when I talk of augmenting the 4th I mean raising the major 4th by a semitone because in my world of PRACTICAL musicianship it is not useful to talk of lowering the 5th and nor can the 1st be amended in any scalic way.
In the sense that colomon points out, I find this to be a most helpful site
I relish these moments. 